Alternating Possession Question

[Timer Dave]

I'm sure this has been covered, but I've just registered to this forum to try and find out if I was correct in something I did the other night at the first game of the year. I'm not an official, merely a timer, so thanks for allowing me to invade your turf.

Alternating possesion situation. Team A throwing in. On the throw in pass, Team B kicks the ball (the first touch is the kick) and is called for the violation. I immediately tell our scorekeeper, possesion DOES NOT change in that situation, the next held ball stays with Team A.

Of course, the next held ball was six seconds later and everyone starts lining up for a throw in by Team B. I blow the horn to point out that it should be Team A's ball.

If I was wrong, I'll eat humble pie. If I'm right, I will wonder how officials (the two JV officials working the game and the one varsity official there to observe them) can walk on the floor and not know the rules.

[tjones1]

You were correct. The arrow doesn't change since there was a kicking violation by Team B.

4.42.5 Situation:

Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1's throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2's kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the throw-in was not contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended. The arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. (6-4-4)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Timer Dave

If I was wrong, I'll eat humble pie. If I'm right, I will wonder how officials (the two JV officials working the game and the one varsity official there to observe them) can walk on the floor and not know the rules.

You were right, but relax. How often have you seen this happen? It's rare, which just means a lot of officials may not be tuned in to it; especially at the JV level.

Why does the varsity ref matter? Were the refs consulting with him during the game?

Also, it might matter where you are. In Iowa girls ball, until a couple years ago, the arrow switched as soon as the ball was handed to the thrower. For officials who worked both, we had to remember which was which during this rare situation.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Timer Dave

I'm not an official, merely a timer...

Don't put yourself down. The only personnel at the game we would refer to as "merely" are coaches.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

You were correct. The arrow doesn't change since there was a kicking violation by Team B.

I greatly appreciate working with a good table crew.
There is nothing that can make a game go South quicker than problems with the book, arrow, and clock.

[chseagle]

Concerning the AP, I've been told never to switch until the ball is put into play. I was retold that Tuesday Night during the Girls' JV Game as well. Is there a NFHS Rule that says that the scorebook has to keep track of the AP?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You were right, but relax. How often have you seen this happen? It's rare, which just means a lot of officials may not be tuned in to it; especially at the JV level.

Why does the varsity ref matter? Were the refs consulting with him during the game?

Also, it might matter where you are. In Iowa girls ball, until a couple years ago, the arrow switched as soon as the ball was handed to the thrower. For officials who worked both, we had to remember which was which during this rare situation.

[APG]

Rule 2-11 Scorer's Duties
The scorer shall:

Article 7....Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure and be responsible for the possession arrow.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning the AP, I've been told never to switch until the ball is put into play. I was retold that Tuesday Night during the Girls' JV Game as well. Is there a NFHS Rule that says that the scorebook has to keep track of the AP?

You desire so strongly to keep the book during Varsity games, yet you don't know that one of the scorer's duties is to handle the AP arrow?

I would say that you aren't ready yet.

You really need to tone it down and be patient. You have a great deal to learn before you can adequately handle that job.

[chseagle]

I couldn't remember if there was or not, thanks for the refresher.

I also reread the "Instructions to Scorers" & under the duties for During the Game it says the same thing, how I have been not seeing that I have no idea.

But then it's been about 9 months since I last saw anything Basketball related.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Rule 2-11 Scorer's Duties
The scorer shall:

Article 7....Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure and be responsible for the possession arrow.

[grunewar]

Yesterday you posted, "Had this happen during the girls' Varsity Game tonight:"

Today you posted"

Originally Posted by chseagle

But then it's been about 9 months since I last saw anything Basketball related.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Yesterday you posted, "Had this happen during the girls' Varsity Game tonight:"

Today you posted"

I've been doing more scoreboard/timer & shot clock, that I lost focus on the regulations concerning the scorebook. The last time I actually did anything with the scorebook was back in 1998 when I was Boys' Basketball Manager. Nothing was told to me then that the scorebook had to keep track of the AP.

It had been about nine months since I had seen/read anything concerning high school basketball before the game the other night.

The last thing I read before the other night concerning High School Basketball rules/regulations was that Washington State had adopted the 35-second shot clock for Boys.

As of late, I pay attention to the scorebook in situations where the scoreboard shows one thing, & the scorebook another or to keep track of player fouls.

Call this a lapse of knowledge

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

The scorer shall: Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure and be responsible for the possession arrow.

I know what the rule states, but around here, the person taking care of the "scoreboard", that is, the clock, posted score, posted fouls, posted bonus, etc., who we would probably call the "timer", normally controls the possession arrow at the table, which is usually right in front of the scoreboard console, while the "scorer" only takes care of the "scorebook". Scorebooks have an area to keep track of alternating possessions, but not all "scorers" use this.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know what the rule states, but around here, the person taking care of the "scoreboard", that is, the clock, posted score, posted fouls, posted bonus, etc., who we would probably call the "timer", normally controls the possession arrow at the table, which is usually right in front of the scoreboard console, while the "scorer" only takes care of the "scorebook". Scorebooks have an area to keep track of alternating possessions, but not all "scorers" use this.

Unfortunately around here in my neck of the woods, the same can be said. The only scorebooks I really have noticed keeping track of the AP has been the Varsity books.

Hopefully before the games on Saturday, I'll be able to ask the Varsity Coaches, how it's normally done in the books so that I can get the training in case I do happen to do scorebook. I'm one of those people that if the person isn't doing their job properly they need to be trained or replaced by someone that has the training. Also I'm strict about who's around the table (friends, cell phones, etc.).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know what the rule states, but around here, the person taking care of the "scoreboard", that is, the clock, posted score, posted fouls, posted bonus, etc., who we would probably call the "timer", normally controls the possession arrow at the table, which is usually right in front of the scoreboard console, while the "scorer" only takes care of the "scorebook". Scorebooks have an area to keep track of alternating possessions, but not all "scorers" use this.

They should. Good scorers will also mark the time of each AP usage; just as they do the timeouts. To me, the visual is like the scoreboard. It should match the book, but if it doesn't we go by the book.