NCAA v NFHS Free Throw Lane Violation

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why the AP? I assume this happened while A1 had the ball -- so the POI would be still the FT.

Maybe it was 5 years ago?

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Maybe it was 5 years ago?

Or maybe the shooter had already shot the ball. (Team control ends on any shot attempt, no?)

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

At being a mouthy official ?

The first...the second is not a name that has ever been applied to me that I know of.
And see, I even added a smilie just like you did!

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why the AP? I assume this happened while A1 had the ball -- so the POI would be still the FT.

He had bounced the ball to shooter and backed away. Ball was released from shooter's hand and was almost at the basket when I heard his whistle. We determined that since the try had started, but not been completed there was no team control and therefore no POI.

I was a little surprised by the timing of the whistle - but we came together and he explained what his whistle was for ..... I told him the ball had left the shooter's hand and that's why we went AP.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

He had bounced the ball to shooter and backed away. Ball was released from shooter's hand and was almost at the basket when I heard his whistle. We determined that since the try had started, but not been completed there was no team control and therefore no POI.

I was a little surprised by the timing of the whistle - but we came together and he explained what his whistle was for ..... I told him the ball had left the shooter's hand and that's why we went AP.

Got it (assuming the try was unsuccessful).

I'm just not sure a double foul at this poijnt really addresses the "hand fighting" before the try is released -- but it apparently worked in your case.

[chartrusepengui]

That's why I was surprised with the timing of the whistle. I guess I would have expected that it would come earlier, and perhaps then, the foul if called would be on the player who originally initiated the contact and not a double foul. My thinking was, and we discussed this post game, that you call it early as they are jousting for the hand position prior to the shot, or not at all.

In any case, he blew the whistle, made the call and we had to sort out how to put ball back into play. After the game and our discussion we felt we got it right under the circumstances - but agreed that this sit. won't likely happen again in this manner. We thought we were lucky that this took care of the situation that night - BUT - it could have led to more problems, fouls, double fouls etc just as easily. To be consistent - if we called it early - we would have to call the same thing throughout the game and we all know there is this type of "gamesmanship" that occurs at nearly every game. In my experience - expecially girl's games.

[chartrusepengui]

When I coached - I always told my girl's to keep their hands low, step in towards defender and up lane and box out. Then when ball came off basket or board to explode upwards, using hands for power and secure the ball in the air. No pattycake or slap and tickle!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

That's why I was surprised with the timing of the whistle.

The timing of the whistle is not important. The fundamentals of the rules state that the ball is dead at the time of the foul(s), unless there is a try in flight. Check #13 and #16.
So if the thrower still had the ball when the contact which your partner deemed to be worthy of a double foul occurred, then the POI should have been that FT attempt. It would be readministered.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

He had bounced the ball to shooter and backed away. Ball was released from shooter's hand and was almost at the basket when I heard his whistle. We determined that since the try had started, but not been completed there was no team control and therefore no POI.

The point I was making was that there WAS a try in flight.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

The point I was making was that there WAS a try in flight.

Is a free throw a try? My initial response is, "Duh, of course." But the definition of a try says: "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket."

So is a free throw really a try? And does the "try in flight" provision apply?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Is a free throw a try? My initial response is, "Duh, of course." But the definition of a try says: "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket."

So is a free throw really a try? And does the "try in flight" provision apply?

Oh, wow. Could this be an unintended loophole in the team control rules? If this is not a try, team control continues until the ball is dead or the defense gets the rebound. It could affect the administration of rebounding fouls.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Is a free throw a try? My initial response is, "Duh, of course." But the definition of a try says: "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket."

So is a free throw really a try? And does the "try in flight" provision apply?

Well, I am saying it is a try, because if I say that it is just a "throw", I believe a pass would also be a "throw" and technically a try is also a "throw". Technically the motions for a "try" and a "free throw" are extrememly similar if not identical but the motions for a pass and a free throw or a pass and a try could be extremely different and if I am going to go that far with all that thinking I believe there will now be far too too many worms in the can.

It's Friday afternoon and I have been with far toooooooooo many middle school students in a small room too long today!!!!!!!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Oh, wow. Could this be an unintended loophole in the team control rules? If this is not a try, team control continues until the ball is dead or the defense gets the rebound. It could affect the administration of rebounding fouls.

It would also mean that the three second rule is in effect during rebounding. For the good of humanity, I'm officially un-asking my question. The consequences are just too ghastly to imagine!

[M&M Guy]

Maybe you guys need to read the definition of a free throw (4-20-1): "A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the semi-circle and behind the free throw line."

Also, 4-20-3 states, "The free throw ends when the try is successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead."

So, the world really isn't becoming unhinged after all.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Is a free throw a try? My initial response is, "Duh, of course." But the definition of a try says: "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket."

So is a free throw really a try? And does the "try in flight" provision apply?

Yes, it's a try. It's not a try for FIELD GOAL.