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Old Tue Oct 27, 2009, 09:46pm
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College question

this is one of the questions on the NCAA Men's test.....A1 is fouled and is put on the line..as he is shooting his first free throw A2 fouls B1 in the lane..what is the ruling? I was thinking technical and ball..thanks
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Old Tue Oct 27, 2009, 09:58pm
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It's not a technical foul. You have a live ball situation because the ball is at the disposal of the shooter, thus we have team control...the foul by A2 is a team control foul.

The first shot is cancelled as the ball became dead on the foul...clear the lane...shoot the final free throw...if it is made, Team B throw in any where on the endline...if it is missed, Team B throw in on the spot.

A.R. 94 in the casebook...just take away the violation part of this particular situation and you are left with the same situation in your original post.
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Old Tue Oct 27, 2009, 10:35pm
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Originally Posted by CLH View Post
It's not a technical foul. You have a live ball situation because the ball is at the disposal of the shooter, thus we have team control...the foul by A2 is a team control foul.

The first shot is cancelled as the ball became dead on the foul...clear the lane...shoot the final free throw...if it is made, Team B throw in any where on the endline...if it is missed, Team B throw in on the spot.

A.R. 94 in the casebook...just take away the violation part of this particular situation and you are left with the same situation in your original post.
Shouldn't A1 still get that first free throw attempt since the ball became dead immediately on the foul and no free throw attempt occurred?
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Old Tue Oct 27, 2009, 11:08pm
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Shouldn't A1 still get that first free throw attempt since the ball became dead immediately on the foul and no free throw attempt occurred?
Agree.
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Old Tue Oct 27, 2009, 11:26pm
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I had never considered this little twist enabled by the difference in NFHS v. NCAA rules. I honestly have no idea what the right answer is. But, what about this?

Art. 3. A free throw ends when:
a. The try is successful;
b. It is certain the try will not be successful;
c. The try touches the floor or any player; or
d. The ball becomes dead.

A2 fouls before the shot is released, the ball is dead, and the free throw ends. To me that argues for the free throw being forfeit. Just as it would be if A2 stepped into the lane early. I'm not aware of any rule that allows us to issue a replacement free throw, nor is this a POI situation.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 12:28am
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A.R. 94. Before a free throw by A1 is in flight, A2 pushes B2, then A3 steps into the free throw lane too soon. The bonus is in effect for both teams.

RULING: The foul by A2, which created a false double foul, is a team-control foul and causes the ball to become dead immediately. Consequently, A3ís violation shall be ignored. A1 shall attempt the free throw(s) with no players on the lane and when the last try is successful, Team B shall have the privilege to run the endline. When the last try is unsuccessful, play shall be resumed by awarding Team B the ball for a throw-in at a designated spot closest to where the team-control foul occurred. (Rule 4-29.4 and 8-6.1)

That to me says the ball is dead and A1 is entitled to the free throw.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 03:12am
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Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
I had never considered this little twist enabled by the difference in NFHS v. NCAA rules. I honestly have no idea what the right answer is. But, what about this?

Art. 3. A free throw ends when:
a. The try is successful;
b. It is certain the try will not be successful;
c. The try touches the floor or any player; or
d. The ball becomes dead.

A2 fouls before the shot is released, the ball is dead, and the free throw ends. To me that argues for the free throw being forfeit. Just as it would be if A2 stepped into the lane early. I'm not aware of any rule that allows us to issue a replacement free throw, nor is this a POI situation.
If, at this point, Coach A asks for a timeout which is subsequently granted, this also causes the ball to become dead, but does not forfeit the free throw.

conclusion: 4-20-3 is not without exception.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 03:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
A.R. 94. Before a free throw by A1 is in flight, A2 pushes B2, then A3 steps into the free throw lane too soon. The bonus is in effect for both teams.

RULING: The foul by A2, which created a false double foul, is a team-control foul and causes the ball to become dead immediately. Consequently, A3ís violation shall be ignored. A1 shall attempt the free throw(s) with no players on the lane and when the last try is successful, Team B shall have the privilege to run the endline. When the last try is unsuccessful, play shall be resumed by awarding Team B the ball for a throw-in at a designated spot closest to where the team-control foul occurred. (Rule 4-29.4 and 8-6.1)

That to me says the ball is dead and A1 is entitled to the free throw.
Yep, that's sure what it looks like it's saying. Thanks.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 08:37am
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Those are good questions regarding the cancellation of the first free throw guys. I could be wrong, but my take is that a violation by the shooting team would have cancelled that first free throw, then surely a foul must do the same. Kinda vague on this ruling huh?
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 08:47am
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i think that it is a contact technical foul..no shots awarded for team A and 2 shots for B and then poi..?
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 09:01am
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i think that it is a contact technical foul..no shots awarded for team A and 2 shots for B and then poi..?
Why do you think it was a contact technical foul?
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagy0716 View Post
i think that it is a contact technical foul..no shots awarded for team A and 2 shots for B and then poi..?
1) There are no technicals for contact except during a deadball. Check your foul summary in the back of the book.

2) The question states that "A2 fouls B1" that means you have a common foul. If you take this as a technical foul then you are changing the question. Don't read more into it than there is.

*This is a liveball situation, therefore it is just a common team control foul, cannot be a technical foul.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 11:08am
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Those are good questions regarding the cancellation of the first free throw guys. I could be wrong, but my take is that a violation by the shooting team would have cancelled that first free throw, then surely a foul must do the same. Kinda vague on this ruling huh?
On a violation by Team A, we cancel the free throw since that's the specific penalty spelled out by 9-2-1. You won't find anywhere that a foul committed during a free throw cancels any merited free throws.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 11:31am
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Those are good questions regarding the cancellation of the first free throw guys. I could be wrong, but my take is that a violation by the shooting team would have canceled that first free throw, then surely a foul must do the same. Kinda vague on this ruling huh?
Why would you think that the penalty for one type of infraction has to be the same as another?

If the defense violates during the FT, the shooter gets a new shot if they miss. However, if the defense fouls during the FT, that doesn't cause the shooter to get a new shot unless the defense independently violates.
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Old Wed Oct 28, 2009, 11:48am
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4.30.3d- A free throw ends when: The ball becomes dead

Ball becomes dead when A1 committed the foul.

Thus, the free throw has ended.


*I always find it interesting how many different ways we can all interpret ONE rule. LOL
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