NFHS - FT mechanic rational?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How would it be clear to me that you don't care what the 2009-2011 manual says when in three previous posts you made it clear to the Forum that you don't have the new manual? If you don't care about what's in the manual, and I believe that you don't, then why refer to the fact that you don't have it on three occasions. If you don't care about what's in the manual, then it shouldn't matter whether you have the current manual, or not. That's the part that I was unclear about.

The facts that I don't have the current manual and that I don't care what it says regarding this situation are two different issues.

I stated that I didn't have a Manual because the OP pointed out that the Manual was different than what I was told at our clinic. Therefore, I did know what the manual said and did not know that this was a state association instruction.

I stated I don't care what the Manual says because I will have to abide by the state association's difference.

I really don't see why that's so difficult to udnerstand.

Also, I would love to ask you some questions regarding officiating scheduling in CT. But at this point, my head is throbbing from having talked to you today. So I'll just excuse myself from the thread.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Exactly. Most games in Illnois are 3 Person, which means it wouldn't be a stretch for the ISHA to require 3 Person. Games would be scheduled on different night. JV officials who are ready would be moved up faster. It actually adds a few years to each official's career.

All post season games are already 3 Person. I do not know what they need to require. It only hurts the schools or conferences that use 2 Person for all their varsity games (Which is so small I can only tell you on one that does not do it for all their games. And that conference uses 3 Person for all their "big games."). And I do not think it has anything to do with guys moving up.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fiscally, there's no reason to expect an official to be paid as much to work a 3 man game as he is paid in a 2 man game. It's not physically as exerting and demanding and it makes the game easier to call. I spoke to a NY state official several years ago. He told me he made $83 for a varsity 2 man game. He said that was one of the main reasons the officials in his area wouldn't push for 3 man. I'm not saying that's true everywhere but I've heard those views expressed from others ijn similiar situations.

I do not know any conference that does not pay more for a varsity 3 Person game than they do for a 2 Person game. That just would not be acceptable. Now a lot of lower level games are double headers, but you do not get paid more than a single varsity game to a single lower level game. Not going to happen.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I would love to ask you some questions regarding officiating scheduling in CT. But at this point, my head is throbbing from having talked to you today. So I'll just excuse myself from the thread.

Sorry to hear that. I sure that my ex-wife, and my former students, would agree with you. Just take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

I'd be pleased to share with you any information that I can provide about scheduling officials here in the Constitution State. When your head stops throbbing, you can discuss it with me here on the Forum, or you could private message me your real email address and we can correspond that way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point, and one, as an official in a state that does not use three person mechanics on any regular basis, that I have a question about.

When a state, or local region, goes from two person to three person, does the total cost of the officials for that game increase, or does the normal two person total fee get split three ways instead of two ways?

Also, shouldn't the total fee increase a little, since the school is getting a better officiated game?

Are there states, or local regions, where officials in a three person game received a check for a normal two person fee, but the school just passed out three of these checks instead of just two? Now that scenario could be quite expensive.

Regular season is controlled by the conferences or the tournaments. The IHSA plays no role in those games and how many officials should or should not work.

Secondly, all our games have a check for all the officials that are supposed to work. If it is 3 officials, then three officials get paid. I cannot imagine it being any other way. And this is why I say that trying to expand from 2 to 3 for all games might be difficult for some areas. Because 3 Person is required in the post season, schools follow because it only makes sense to see the same officials in the regular season that you see in the post season.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Secondly, all our games have a check for all the officials that are supposed to work. If it is 3 officials, then three officials get paid. I cannot imagine it being any other way.

I'm sorry. I don't think that my questions were clear enough.

Let's say that a state, or a conference, is thinking about going from a two person game to a three person game. Let's also say that previously, each official in the two man game received $50, for a total cost of $100 to the school for the game. In going to a three person game, would each official receive $33 each, for the same total cost of $100 to the school for the three person game as for the two person game? Or would each official get $50 each for a total cost to the school of $150?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm sorry. I don't think that my questions were clear enough.

Let's say that a state, or a conference, is thinking about going from a two person game to a three person game. Let's also say that previously, each official in the two man game received $50, for a total cost of $100 to the school for the game. In going to a three person game, would each official receive $33 each, for the same total cost of $100 to the school for the three person game as for the two person game? Or would each official get $50 each for a total cost to the school of $150?

No, you pay them each the same fee. Or at least that is what I would expect. And considering what they pay others that have nothing to do with most games, I do not see why this is a problem. I do not ever remember a fee reduction unless the school had a double header policy for the officials. But that was the case with the smaller schools that did that, I never heard of the larger schools (outside of the Chicago Public League) making their officials to work both games.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, you pay them each the same fee.

So if I received a check for $50 for doing a two person game last year, and assuming no increase in fees over the off season, and the state, or conference, decides to go with three person game this year, then I can expect the same $50 check this year, only this year it's for a three person game? Sounds expensive, $100 for a two person game last year, $150 for a three person game this year. How did you guys in three person states get this first started? Did you threaten to go on strike?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fiscally, there's no reason to expect an official to be paid as much to work a 3 man game as he is paid in a 2 man game. It's not physically as exerting and demanding and it makes the game easier to call.

That would be reasonable if the 2-man pay is reasonable. In Oregon, we only recent caught up with our neighbooring states and are still below the national average. To go 3-man and split the game fees 3 ways would be an insult. I wouldn't expect the same pay for 3 as two but I wouldn't expect a big drop either. It may be less physically demanding but it does still take a lot of time...up to 1 hour travel, arrive 1 hour before the game, 1.5 hours for the game, a little time after the game and up to an hour drive home....that is up to 4.5 hours of time. Even if the drive is half that (as is more commonly the case), it is still 3.5 hours total. Once you take out expenses, that is under $10 an hour....and they think we should get less???

[zm1283]

Here each official makes the same per game in 3-man as they do in 2-man. Varsity games are $55 and JV games $45 (Same 2 or 3 officials work both on the same night).

So if a school or conference hires three officials, they pay them all $45 for the JV game and pay them all $55 for the Varsity game. Same with two officials.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So if I received a check for $50 for doing a two person game last year, and assuming no increase in fees over the off season, and the state, or conference, decides to go with three person game this year, then I can expect the same $50 check this year, only this year it's for a three person game? Sounds expensive, $100 for a two person game last year, $150 for a three person game this year. How did you guys in three person states get this first started? Did you threaten to go on strike?

Billy,

I really do not know that there was much issue with the schools. For one this was done years ago. We have had 3 Person for all playoff games since 98. Schools in many cases were using 3 Person for many of their games anyway. I do not think schools took this position like you suggest. Also basketball is a revenue sport and they pay more for a single football game for officials than any basketball game. I did not see an issue with fee that big of a deal. The smaller schools as I said would sometimes try to get officials to work a JV/Varsity double header and the money would not be as much as if they paid the JV officials separate, but that has gone away in many cases too. But those were schools that assigned their own games for the most part, and if you did not pay a high enough fee, officials would on their own not go there. And the market in a sense dictated the fees going up. Because schools and conferences wanted to not have officials not go to their places just because of money alone. Basketball is a pretty big deal in this state. It is not difficult to come up with an extra $50 in your example. But so you know, most fees are in the $60 range now and some are higher.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...schools that assigned their own games for the most part, and if you did not pay a high enough fee, officials would on their own not go there. And the market in a sense dictated the fees going up. Because schools and conferences wanted to not have officials not go to their places just because of money alone. Basketball is a pretty big deal in this state. It is not difficult to come up with an extra $50 in your example. But so you know, most fees are in the $60 range now and some are higher.

JRutledge: Good, informative post. Thanks. From your post I can see two reasons why I'm having trouble wrapping my arms around this three person issue, and, again, I'm in a, for the most part, two person state.

First. Individual schools in Connecticut do not set fees for officials. There is no competitive bidding. They all pay the same fee, as set by our state high school athletics governing body. So we all happily go where our assignment commissioner sends us. Travel never becomes an issue, because we have different assignment commissioners for each county. My longest trip is 50 miles, one way, and I'm seldom sent to that school. Many years ago we even stopped negotiating with the state body, and now we automatically accept a yearly fee increase equal to the average teacher pay increase across the entire state, so, for example, if the average increase in teachers' pay, statewide, is 2.5%, then we will get an automatic 2.5% increase in our game fees. No more yearly negotiating sessions in smoke filled rooms.

Second. I believe that Connecticut basketball officials may be some of the highest paid basketball officials in the nation. This is probably due to the general wealth of the state, as well as the high cost of living in the state. The varsity basketball fee for 2009-10 is $86.63. The subvarsity fee, which not only includes junior varsity games, but also includes freshman, and middle school, games, is $56.18. Only ice hockey gets more, $90.00 varsity, $58.00 subvarsity. To add a third official to a varsity basketball game would mean an additional $86.63 game cost to the school, meaning an additional cost of $866.30 over a ten game home schedule, and that's only for varsity three person games, it doesn't account for junior varsity three person games. To compound economic matters, we are about to enter our first year with mandatory fees, dictated by our state high school athletics governing body, for preseason scrimmages, I believe in the $50.00 range. Previously we officiated preseason scrimmages free of charge, or for some small, undetermined ahead of time, form of compensation (T-shirt, sandwich, pizza, $10, $20, etc.) that was decided by each individual school. This will now add an additional cost to the school's basketball officiating budget.

Connecticut may eventually catchup. Some of the big city schools in the southern part of the state occasionally use three officials for some of their "big rival" games, and three person crews are mandatory for the state quarterfinals, semifinals, and finals, in all three (school size) classes. The funny thing about the state tournament three person games, is that some of our best officials, that are selected by coaches, to officiate the state tournament, have litttle, or no, experience with three person mechanics, so we often see a lot of finger pointing as partners help each other in regard to where, and how, to switch. In some cases there is an NCAA official on the crew that kind of takes charge. Last season our local board had its first ever three person mechanics training session. You heard me right, first ever, in 2008. Only about a twenty officials, from a local board of over 250 officials, attended the session. I'm sure that the poor turnout for this training session was due to lack of confidence that Connecticut will be going to a lot of three person games anytime soon.

[muxbule]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They doesn't change the fact I didn't get one or what we were told at our state clinic.

BTW, it's not rational, it's rationale.

By the way, it's not they doesn't, it's that doesn't. we all make typos. Lighten up

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No your not. "Johnny Yuma was a rebel. He roamed through the West."

Back In The Saddle: Do you carry a double-barreled shotgun with a sawed-off stock and barrel?

Only for rivalry games.

[CallMeMrRef]

From the POE and the mechanics change, it appears that the NFHS is more concerned with being able to see the lane violation than being able to referee the rebounding action. As lead looking across the lane you are straghtlined for that rebound foul. Have no idea if player was pushed from behind or if he himself jumped forward.

I think the NCAA mechanic of same side is a better situation. Rather miss a lane violation for breaking the plane (how many of these actually get called?) than a rebounding foul. Looking at same side we can definitely see if a player actuallly stepped into the lane prior to the ball hitting the rim and that is more likely to lead to a violation call.

[Adam]

Here in CO there is a separate pay scale for 3 vs 2. The school still pays more over all for a three person game than for a two person game, but the officals will get paid slightly less.

At the JV level, it was $35 and $41 last season. At the varsity level, I believe it was $47 and $55. I'm not sure about the two person varsity as I haven't worked a two person varsity game since I left Iowa. They do have a state standard, however.