NFHS - FT mechanic rational?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2009-11 NFHS BASKETBALL OFFICIALS MANUAL
2.2.3 Free Throws:
B. Lead Official:
6. Watch the first space on the near lane line and all the spaces on the opposite lane line for violations.
C. Trail Official:
5. Observe the thrower and top two spaces on the opposite lane line for violations.

Please note that anything I post with regard to mechanics is based on three man mechanics, not two man mechanics

We haven't worked anything but three man for varsity games in NC in 19 years.

States still using two man need to catch up with the 21st century.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

State still using two man need to catch up with the 21st century.

To be fair, I am not sure how big your state is when it comes to population. Some of this is a financial issue, not a style issue.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

To be fair, I am not sure how big your state is when it comes to population. Some of this is a financial issue, not a style issue.

It's nothing that couldn't be overcome with some give and take if people were truly interested in doing what's best for the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's nothing that couldn't be overcome with some give and take if people were truly interested in doing what's best for the game.

The reason I said this is because I know by population my state is bigger. There are 778 schools according to the IHSA. That means if they all play, this involves 389 games if they all play on one night (without the consideration of gender). You need 1167 different officials to work that night. Now that is not very realistic and not going to happen that way, but this means just our state has a lot of schools and it is hard to find officials to work all the games

There are not that many basketball licenses in the state of Illinois. And this is without consideration of financial situations and standards and logistics to make that happen in scheduling. And for the record, most games in Illinois are 3 Person.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason I said this is because I know by population my state is bigger. There are 778 schools according to the IHSA. That means if they all play, this involves 389 games if they all play on one night (without the consideration of gender). You need 1167 different officials to work that night. Now that is not very realistic and not going to happen that way, but this means just our state has a lot of schools and it is hard to find officials to work all the games

There are not that many basketball licenses in the state of Illinois. And this is without consideration of financial situations and standards and logistics to make that happen in scheduling. And for the record, most games in Illinois are 3 Person.

Exactly. Most games in Illnois are 3 Person, which means it wouldn't be a stretch for the ISHA to require 3 Person. Games would be scheduled on different night. JV officials who are ready would be moved up faster. It actually adds a few years to each official's career.

Fiscally, there's no reason to expect an official to be paid as much to work a 3 man game as he is paid in a 2 man game. It's not physically as exerting and demanding and it makes the game easier to call. I spoke to a NY state official several years ago. He told me he made $83 for a varsity 2 man game. He said that was one of the main reasons the officials in his area wouldn't push for 3 man. I'm not saying that's true everywhere but I've heard those views expressed from others ijn similiar situations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fiscally, there's no reason to expect an official to be paid as much to work a 3 man game as he is paid in a 2 man game. It's not physically as exerting and demanding and it makes the game easier to call.

Good point, and one, as an official in a state that does not use three person mechanics on any regular basis, that I have a question about.

When a state, or local region, goes from two person to three person, does the total cost of the officials for that game increase, or does the normal two person total fee get split three ways instead of two ways?

Also, shouldn't the total fee increase a little, since the school is getting a better officiated game?

Are there states, or local regions, where officials in a three person game received a check for a normal two person fee, but the school just passed out three of these checks instead of just two? Now that scenario could be quite expensive.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point, and one, as an official in a state that does not use three person mechanics on any regular basis, that I have a question about.

When a state, or local region, goes from two person to three person, does the total cost of the officials for that game increase, or does the normal two person total fee get split three ways instead of two ways?

Also, shouldn't the total fee increase a little, since the school is getting a better officiated game?

Are there states, or local regions, where officials in a three person game received a check for a normal two person fee, but the school just passed out three of these checks instead of just two? Now that scenario could be quite expensive.

Regular season is controlled by the conferences or the tournaments. The IHSA plays no role in those games and how many officials should or should not work.

Secondly, all our games have a check for all the officials that are supposed to work. If it is 3 officials, then three officials get paid. I cannot imagine it being any other way. And this is why I say that trying to expand from 2 to 3 for all games might be difficult for some areas. Because 3 Person is required in the post season, schools follow because it only makes sense to see the same officials in the regular season that you see in the post season.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Exactly. Most games in Illnois are 3 Person, which means it wouldn't be a stretch for the ISHA to require 3 Person. Games would be scheduled on different night. JV officials who are ready would be moved up faster. It actually adds a few years to each official's career.

All post season games are already 3 Person. I do not know what they need to require. It only hurts the schools or conferences that use 2 Person for all their varsity games (Which is so small I can only tell you on one that does not do it for all their games. And that conference uses 3 Person for all their "big games."). And I do not think it has anything to do with guys moving up.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fiscally, there's no reason to expect an official to be paid as much to work a 3 man game as he is paid in a 2 man game. It's not physically as exerting and demanding and it makes the game easier to call. I spoke to a NY state official several years ago. He told me he made $83 for a varsity 2 man game. He said that was one of the main reasons the officials in his area wouldn't push for 3 man. I'm not saying that's true everywhere but I've heard those views expressed from others ijn similiar situations.

I do not know any conference that does not pay more for a varsity 3 Person game than they do for a 2 Person game. That just would not be acceptable. Now a lot of lower level games are double headers, but you do not get paid more than a single varsity game to a single lower level game. Not going to happen.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fiscally, there's no reason to expect an official to be paid as much to work a 3 man game as he is paid in a 2 man game. It's not physically as exerting and demanding and it makes the game easier to call.

That would be reasonable if the 2-man pay is reasonable. In Oregon, we only recent caught up with our neighbooring states and are still below the national average. To go 3-man and split the game fees 3 ways would be an insult. I wouldn't expect the same pay for 3 as two but I wouldn't expect a big drop either. It may be less physically demanding but it does still take a lot of time...up to 1 hour travel, arrive 1 hour before the game, 1.5 hours for the game, a little time after the game and up to an hour drive home....that is up to 4.5 hours of time. Even if the drive is half that (as is more commonly the case), it is still 3.5 hours total. Once you take out expenses, that is under $10 an hour....and they think we should get less???

[zm1283]

Here each official makes the same per game in 3-man as they do in 2-man. Varsity games are $55 and JV games $45 (Same 2 or 3 officials work both on the same night).

So if a school or conference hires three officials, they pay them all $45 for the JV game and pay them all $55 for the Varsity game. Same with two officials.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

States still using two man need to catch up with the 21st century.

Connecticut is certainly behind almost all other states in terms of three person games. One reason is due to economics. Even though Connecticut is one of the wealthiest states, local towns, and cities, are always arguing with the state over who is supposed to fund education. Property taxes, which are the most common method of funding local education here in Connecticut, are already through the roof. Secondly, maybe because we are one of the wealthiest states, many don't need the second income that be be obtained by officiating, and we simply don't have enough officials to cover three person games. Hell, during influenza season, we barely have enough officials to cover our Friday night games, our biggest basketball night of the week here in Connecticut. Many officials pull double duty on Friday, doing a junior varsity, varsity, doubleheader, or doing a freshman, or middle school game, in the late afternoon, and doing a junior varsity game at night.

In a simlair topic, this will be the first season, you read right, the first season, that we will be getting paid for most preseason scrimmages.