Jr High...GIRLS

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mick

I won't generally Whack! a middle schooler for that.

My immediate reaction to your post was, "Me neither."

But pretty quickly it turned to, "Well, why not?" It's a meaningless pre-season game at a level where the focus is, or should be, on teaching kids the fundamentals of the game. Meaningful learning involves more than just listening to instruction and doing what they are told, but in trying stuff, making mistakes, and learning from them. In the same way we come to own rules by kicking them, this girl now owns this rule.

Just thinking out loud.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

My immediate reaction to your post was, "Me neither."

But pretty quickly it turned to, "Well, why not?"

Exactly.

Once, during a JrH girls game, a team was constantly taking their sweet time coming out of time outs/quarters. I used the resumption-of-play procedure, which resulted in a 5-second violation. The parents of the violating team were furious, and before I administered the ball for the other team, one parent said "you need to teach them. They're just young girls."

I turned around and told him, "That's how you teach them. By enforcing the rules."

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

My immediate reaction to your post was, "Me neither."

But pretty quickly it turned to, "Well, why not?" It's a meaningless pre-season game at a level where the focus is, or should be, on teaching kids the fundamentals of the game. Meaningful learning involves more than just listening to instruction and doing what they are told, but in trying stuff, making mistakes, and learning from them. In the same way we come to own rules by kicking them, this girl now owns this rule.

Just thinking out loud.

Generally, I would agree with you on your thoughts about why you wouldn't whack the middle schooler for this, however what would you do if you had an opposing coach starts questioning you on why you didn't whack it? Are you going to whack that coach when he/she goes off on you for not whacking it? I had the same dilemma in a freshman football game when it came to lining up in the neutral zone and those little things, and it got ugly enough that I had to flag the coach for USC. Sometimes a little teaching sounds great, but there's always an a**hole waiting for you to flag or whack that s**t and ends up getting the flag or whacked.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Generally, I would agree with you on your thoughts about why you wouldn't whack the middle schooler for this, however what would you do if you had an opposing coach starts questioning you on why you didn't whack it? Are you going to whack that coach when he/she goes off on you for not whacking it? I had the same dilemma in a freshman football game when it came to lining up in the neutral zone and those little things, and it got ugly enough that I had to flag the coach for USC. Sometimes a little teaching sounds great, but there's always an a**hole waiting for you to flag or whack that s**t and ends up getting the flag or whacked.

Situations like this are thankfully rare. It's usually a kid having a brain fart or lacking the kind of situational awareness that comes with time and experience. Although, I'm starting to like the idea of enforcement as a teaching tool to help facilitate that experience.

But, to your point. I have had coaches question this before. And I've had pretty good success saying, "Coach, I would do the same thing for your kids." Most good coaches understand where you're coming from.

But occasionally a coach will go off. Why? Sometimes he's frustrated, and taking it out on me. Some coaches just don't get it. Sometimes its tactical, creating a scene trying to intimidate me or to get his way by making it less painful to just give him what he wants. Note that all of these are "him issues" not "me issues". Unfortunately for him, I will not take abuse, I do not intimidate, and tantrums do not sway me. If you don't believe me, I'd be happy to provide you with references, both coaches and my children.

Sure, after a game like that I may re-think my approach to future situations. I don't like pain any more than you do. My goal is to achieve a good outcome to every situation. Some days I get better results than others. But I cannot let fear of a grown adult's potentially adverse reaction to dictate how I handle situations.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

My immediate reaction to your post was, "Me neither."

But pretty quickly it turned to, "Well, why not?" It's a meaningless pre-season game at a level where the focus is, or should be, on teaching kids the fundamentals of the game. Meaningful learning involves more than just listening to instruction and doing what they are told, but in trying stuff, making mistakes, and learning from them. In the same way we come to own rules by kicking them, this girl now owns this rule.

Just thinking out loud.

Bits,
Girls' MS, as well as Boys' MS, often have very excited players coming off the bench for one of only a few times in a season.
Running out onto the floor could well be "glee" driven as opposed to advantage driven.
I can stop play without calling a technical and still live with it.
All players are not equal.

[Mark Padgett]

In the over 30 years our local kids rec league has been operating, our policy is to make the call, then explain the call (if necessary) rather than let the violation go. It is our philosophy that this is the best way for kids to learn the rules, plus it promotes consistency in the officiating. Prior to each season, we explain this to all the coaches at the annual pre-season coaches meeting. We've never heard (at least in the 17 years I've been on the Board) a persuasive argument against doing it this way.

If parents don't like it, they can join the Board and work to change it or they can put a sock in it.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

In the over 30 years our local kids rec league has been operating, our policy is to make the call, then explain the call (if necessary) rather than let the violation go. It is our philosophy that this is the best way for kids to learn the rules, plus it promotes consistency in the officiating. Prior to each season, we explain this to all the coaches at the annual pre-season coaches meeting. We've never heard (at least in the 17 years I've been on the Board) a persuasive argument against doing it this way.

If parents don't like it, they can join the Board and work to change it or they can put a sock in it.

I find that to be a very persuasive argument, backed up by significant personal experience. Hard to argue with that.

Thank you for contributing to my education.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I find that to be a very persuasive argument, backed up by significant personal experience. Hard to argue with that.

Thank you for contributing to my education.

Aw, you're just sucking up because he agrees with your way of thinking.

(Btw, I agree with you, Padgett and mick.)

[IowaMike]

I don't have a problem with an official not calling a technical in a middle school game for running on the floor during a live ball. I've had it happen three or four times, but my philosophy is to always call the T. I think it reinforces the rule to the kids. I'll always tell the player why they got the T. I really couldn't care less what the coaches think about calling it or letting it go. We all let things go in middle school games that we don't in a varsity contest. If you called every single travelling violation in a 7th grade girls game, it would take three hours to play it. I call a lot of varsity ball, but I still enjoy doing some middle school games every year. No pressure, and it's fun to work a kids 7th grade game then see them as a polished varsity player four or five years down the road.

Originally Posted by IowaMike

I don't have a problem with an official not calling a technical in a middle school game for running on the floor during a live ball. I've had it happen three or four times, but my philosophy is to always call the T. I think it reinforces the rule to the kids. I'll always tell the player why they got the T. I really couldn't care less what the coaches think about calling it or letting it go. We all let things go in middle school games that we don't in a varsity contest. If you called every single travelling violation in a 7th grade girls game, it would take three hours to play it. I call a lot of varsity ball, but I still enjoy doing some middle school games every year. No pressure, and it's fun to work a kids 7th grade game then see them as a polished varsity player four or five years down the road.

Boy, you must have some really good 7th graders where you work. If I called every travel in a 7th grade girls game around here, I might as well as count the game as my 2nd day job.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by IowaMike

I call a lot of varsity ball, but I still enjoy doing some middle school games every year. No pressure, and it's fun to work a kids 7th grade game then see them as a polished varsity player four or five years down the road.

Oh, I dunno, I'm not sure I'd use the terms "enjoy" and "fun" in/around the discussion of some of the G 7th grade games I've done. But, I understand your point. I have done one leagues B13U games every weekend for yrs and enjoy it.....most of the time.

I do agree though it is very difficult to "relaxe" the travelling call standard at the lower levels.

As is being discussed with the "T" call (for example), at what age/level do you just say - "I'm calling it every time, no question" and stop being the helper/teacher? I don't believe there is a right answer. 13 yr old boy AAU but not 14 yr old Rec? F HS? MS?

Just curious.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Aw, you're just sucking up because he agrees with your way of thinking.

(Btw, I agree with you, Padgett and mick.)

Actually, he's changing my way of thinking. We'll see how long it sticks.

[PIAA REF]

I usually woundn't give a T for a kid running on the court, but the coach was yelling thats a T, Thats a T so I did.

[Mark Padgett]

There's another reason our kids rec league has the policy of making the violation call. Each year, we train a handful of new HS kids to be refs. It's hard enough doing so without trying to get them to let some calls go. Since we have so many young and relatively inexperienced refs, it makes much more sense over the long haul to teach them to enforce the rules. It's not just for having the young players learn the rules, it's for the young refs, also.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mick

Bits,
Girls' MS, as well as Boys' MS, often have very excited players coming off the bench for one of only a few times in a season.
Running out onto the floor could well be "glee" driven as opposed to advantage driven.
I can stop play without calling a technical and still live with it.
All players are not equal.

Mick, I have to say that if you were my partner, and you handled this situation the way you describe, you'd probably get a smile and a thumbs up from me.

One important aspect that really hasn't been explicitly addressed yet is context. As you point out, there is a very real difference between a clear cut violation in an undecided game, and a rookie mistake by one of "the scrubs" while having his moment in the sun.