Tough situation my partner put us in

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You're simply looking for an excuse to put your feelings of how you think the rules should be, above how the rules are actually written.

If you want to put it that way, it's not really that hard to find an excuse in this case.

"A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule."

That statement alone makes me comfortable giving the ball to blue.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you want to put it that way, it's not really that hard to find an excuse in this case.

"A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule."

That statement alone makes me comfortable giving the ball to blue.

I don't believe that the NFHS can be any clearer than this:

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 12: A1 is passing the ball to A2 in the frontcourt. The pass is deflected by B1 and is in the air when the official erroneously blows the whistle and grants a time-out request by (a) Team A's head coach, or (b) Team B's head coach. RULING: In (a) and (b), even though there was no player control and the ball was not dead, the time-out is entitled to be used since it was granted. The time-out once granted cannot be revoked and is charged to the appropriate team. The stoppage should be treated as an accidental whistle by the official and play shall resume at the point of interruption. Team A, which was in team control, is entitled to a throw-in at a spot nearest to where the ball was located (last in contact with a player or the court) when the stoppage occurred. (4-36-1, 2a; 5-8-3; 7-4-4)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you want to put it that way, it's not really that hard to find an excuse in this case.

That's all this argument really is about, an "excuse"? It's even easier to find the reason to give it back to white.

Originally Posted by just another ref

"A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule."

That statement alone makes me comfortable giving the ball to blue.

Actually, this statement backs my point about giving it back to white. The intent of the putting the accidental whistle phrase in the POI rule is to remove any judgement about who would've, should've, could've gotten the ball, and just give it back to the team in control at the time of the whistle. (Or, of course, if no team control, then AP.) Looks pretty cut-and-dried from a rule intent, doesn't it? Nevada has included NFHS case plays that expand on the intent of the rule on POI after an accidental whistle.

The NCAA and Fed. rules on POI are almost exactly the same, with the only difference being NCAA also includes the women's penalty of a TI by the offended team for an excessive TO. So while we sometimes have to be careful about comparing rule sets, it's pretty easy in this case. The NCAA also includes a definition of an Inadvertant Whistle (4-39-1): "An inadvertent whistle occurs any time an official blows the whistle as an oversight and does not have a call to make." That looks like an easy transition to Fed. rules, since it fits in well with how the case plays handle accidental whistles.

For the last time, I don't disagree it's a shame blue didn't get the ball, because the official's screwup prevented their apparent easy layup. But the rule on POI is very clear, and the only arguments against it are not based on the rule itself, but on extrapolations from other rules, or even purposely mis-calling a play to get the "desired" result. It's not our job to make calls to fit our definition of fair, but to make calls based on the rules.

If this discussion is really about what calls would be made in a camp setting, or rec league setting vs. an actual sanctioned game, that's not what I'm discussing. I'm only pointing out the rule, and we can never go wrong following the rules. What's set aside or ignored in lower-level games is another discussion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Actually, this statement backs my point about giving it back to white. The intent of the putting the accidental whistle phrase in the POI rule is to remove any judgement about who would've, should've, could've gotten the ball, and just give it back to the team in control at the time of the whistle. (Or, of course, if no team control, then AP.) Looks pretty cut-and-dried from a rule intent, doesn't it? Nevada has included NFHS case plays that expand on the intent of the rule on POI after an accidental whistle.

The NCAA and Fed. rules on POI are almost exactly the same, with the only difference being NCAA also includes the women's penalty of a TI by the offended team for an excessive TO. So while we sometimes have to be careful about comparing rule sets, it's pretty easy in this case. The NCAA also includes a definition of an Inadvertant Whistle (4-39-1): "An inadvertent whistle occurs any time an official blows the whistle as an oversight and does not have a call to make." That looks like an easy transition to Fed. rules, since it fits in well with how the case plays handle accidental whistles.

For the last time, I don't disagree it's a shame blue didn't get the ball, because the official's screwup prevented their apparent easy layup. But the rule on POI is very clear, and the only arguments against it are not based on the rule itself, but on extrapolations from other rules, or even purposely mis-calling a play to get the "desired" result. It's not our job to make calls to fit our definition of fair, but to make calls based on the rules.

If this discussion is really about what calls would be made in a camp setting, or rec league setting vs. an actual sanctioned game, that's not what I'm discussing. I'm only pointing out the rule, and we can never go wrong following the rules. What's set aside or ignored in lower-level games is another discussion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

We can never go wrong following the rules.

Amen.