Was Dee Kantner And Violet Palmers Hiring Part Of A NBA Cover Up? - Page 2

BktBallRef · #16 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 09:00am

Okay Love2Ref, let's say that Dee and Violet got their jobs because of Sandy's lawsuit. Does that mean Dee shouldn't be fired if she can't pull her weight as an official?

Forgive me, but I just don't see what anything Sandy did has to do with Dee's release. Maybe you should have posted this when they were hired.

Love2ref4Ever · #17 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 09:08am

The point that I am trying to make here is that, Sandy had to challenge the NBA in order for them to "wake up and smell the coffee." If this lawsuit was never filed no one would have even considered bringing these two women officials into the league so soon. You can beleive what you want, but the truth of the matter is, that I have discussed this with a couple of NBA officials, and one Supervisor Of Officials and they don't have to lie! Don't be suprised if Dee Kantner takes legal action and Sadra Otiz Devalle is called to testify!

johnSandlin · #18 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 11:27am

I have to BKBallRef Love2ref is this one. You should voiced your opinion when Dee and Violet were hired, not now. But as the old saying goes, "better late then never" in voicing your opinion.

ripian · #19 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 12:32pm

Does anybody think that if Mark Davis or any other male referee was released by the NBA we'd be having this conversation?

I'm sure Dee is a good offical, she must of been to be working at that level of ball. Let's face it though, if you're supervisor's don't think you're up to the job then they'll show you the door. I'm sorry that Dee lost her job in the NBA, but I really cannot believe Rush and Jackson would release an official due to gender. If in the powers-that-be's opinion she wasn't up for the job, then yes she should have been released.

I'm all for gender equality, whether it be in the Fire Department, Military or the NBA but the bottom line is, you've got to be able to do the job. Obviously in the eyes of Mr. Rush and Mr. Jackson, Dee wasn't.

Love2ref4Ever · #20 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 03:18pm

Who said anything about Rush or Jackson, what are you doing, just making up names as you go along! You never know who made the evaluations that damaged her!

ChuckElias · #21 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 03:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
Who said anything about Rush or Jackson, what are you doing, just making up names as you go along! You never know who made the evaluations that damaged her!

Nobody is making up names, Love2, and you know it; and nobody said that Ed Rush or Stu Jackson made the damaging evaluations. But Jackson is the Senior Vice President of Basketball Operations and Rush is the Director of Officiating. So it stands to reason that the final decision to release Kantner had to go through at least one of them, doesn't it? That was Ian's (ripian's) only point. Can you really disagree with it?

Love2, what are you so worked up about? Nobody is attacking you, or attacking Dee Kantner. I'm not asking as a criticism; I'm genuinely baffled. She got low ratings and got dropped. It happens every season to lots of officials at lots of different levels. Why does this particular decision bother you so much?

Chuck

Love2ref4Ever · #22 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 03:53pm

She officiated in the NBA for 5 seasons, you really beieve if she was not cutting it she would have been kept on staff that long. I don't feel sorry for Dee Kantner because she will still be able to say she made it to the top. I feel sorry for Sandra Ortiz Devalle, because she could have been the first latin american women to officiate in the NBA. Maybe it dosen't sound like a big deal to you, but it would have been very special.And she never got her chance to live out her dream because the NBA was not ready to let a women work in there league!

ChuckElias · #23 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 04:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
I feel sorry for Sandra Ortiz Devalle, because she could have been the first latin american women to officiate in the NBA. And she never got her chance to live out her dream because the NBA was not ready to let a women work in there league!

Maybe, just maybe, she wasn't ready to work the NBA. I don't know, I never heard of her; I never saw her work. But working the USBL doesn't have anything to do with working the NBA. I worked the USBL this past season, and there's NO WAY I would consider myself ready to work the NBA. There's just no comparison. Additionally, if she was trying to make it before the NBA went to 3-man, then it would've virtually impossible break in. There were even fewer slots available then than there are now. And I'm sure you know this, but there's no guarantee in life that says everybody gets to live out his or her dream.

Just something to think about.

BktBallRef · #24 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
Who said anything about Rush or Jackson, what are you doing, just making up names as you go along! You never know who made the evaluations that damaged her!

You obviously need to research this further.

Coaches evaluations account for 40% of an official's ranking.
Observers evaluations account for 10% of an official's ranking.
Mr. Jackson and Mr. Rush account for 50% of an official's ranking.

You don't think their 50% had something to do with her getting canned?

Love2ref4Ever · #25 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 07:04am

Maybe this is an injustice. I know for a fact that Ms. Devalle could officiate on this level if given the opportunity. There was definately pressure on the NBA to improve there image, and allow women the opportunity to officiate in there league. As far as Dee Kantner's evaluation is concerned, if the NBA was not satisfied with her developement then they have every right to drop her. But was she really expected to cut it? or was she being played all along? I have seen Dee Kantner work and she was just as good as some of the veteran officials in the league. And she ran the floor better than some of the veteran officials. Her apearance was good, she has to be one of the best conditioned officials male or female that I have seen in many years. The sad thing about the officiating business in the NBA is this "code of silence" that seems to be demanded of there officials. Who brought Dee Kantner into the league? Was this observer/recruiter instructed to look for some women officials to bring into the league. One thing for sure women officials have been discriminated by the NBA in the past, and Sandra Ortiz DeValle addressed this issue. So the next time you watch Violet Palmer working an NBA game think of how one women fought for women officials to have the opportunity to referee in the NBA!

BktBallRef · #26 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 07:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
I know for a fact that Ms. Devalle could officiate on this level if given the opportunity.

Now, let's look at this statement. You know this for a fact? You've seen her officiate in NBA camps or in NBA preseason games? You've been through the NBA wars and know exactly what it takes to officiate in the NBA? You understand their all their philosophies, mechanics, and rules? With all due respect, I don't believe you can answer yes to any of those questions. Your statement is your opinion, it is not a fact. For you to make such a statement as "fact," is no different than the average fan sitting in the stands and saying that Chuck Elias or Mark Padgett is a great official or that he stinks. The fan isn't qualified to make that statement, and neither are you concerning Ms. Devalle.

Quote:

The sad thing about the officiating business in the NBA is this "code of silence" that seems to be demanded of there officials.

What code of silence is that?

Quote:

Who brought Dee Kantner into the league? Was this observer/recruiter instructed to look for some women officials to bring into the league.

That would be Rod Thorn and Darrell Garrettson, both of whom no longer work for the NBA. What does it matter whether they were instructed to bring women into the league or not? First, you complain about Ms. Devalle not being hired, then you complain about Ms. Kantner and Ms. Palmer being hired. I'm sorry but I don't understand your argument.

Could Ms. Devalle officiate in the NBA?

We'll never know, will we?

Brian Watson · #27 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 08:07am

Some one needs to put this thread out of its misery.

Dude is lathered up, emotional, and this post is going no where.

Let's talk more about airball travels.....

Love2ref4Ever · #28 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 08:26am

For you're information the NBA has a staff of three persons who's sole job is to "find diamonds in the rough" And there are three NBA officials that have told me that she deserved the opportunity to officiate in the league. Then there is one retired NBA official that said Ms. Devalle was the best women official that he has ever worked with, and he also feels that she got jerked. This is not about getting the last word, because you can have it. What it's about is being discriminated, that maybe something you have been lucky to not have to expierence. And if you have been discriminated because of race, gender or whatever then you should remember the pain.

Brian Watson · #29 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 09:02am

How long have you officiated?

If you want to call it discrimination, then so be it, but officials get assignments becasue of who they know, or they have done it a 1000 years, and better officials get passed over every year. Like anything, sometimes it is all about being in the right place at the right time or, who you know. It is not always discrimination, just how the biz works.

Let's jump into your sugar coated dream world and agree the NBA did not hire her simply becasue she was a woman. Do you think the NBA would hire her becasue they lost a court case? Never, they would find someone else with comparable skills to hire. Why? The person who filed the suit has lost all credability. That person could never work the league or have any respect, because everyone there would know she did not make it in through the eval process, but a court case. She would have been set up to fail right from the start. If she did open the door, good for her, but she could have never walked through it, the players and coaches would have never accepted her.

You have to make it on your merits, it seems unfair to people becasue this biz is so subjective, but we all know that going in. Life is not fair, that is why I love lemonade.

Love2ref4Ever · #30 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 09:18am

I have officiated long enough to see the people who "move up" the ladder because of the color of there skin, and those who do not move because of the color of there skin. I just think it sucks when you can't move up because of the color of your skin, and you are latin american. Have you ever had to deal with this sort of thing?