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-   -   admitting to a coach you made a mistake (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/54166-admitting-coach-you-made-mistake.html)

VACaller Thu Jul 30, 2009 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 617962)
Apparently not. But, depending on the situation, you could've been. Clear enough? :D

That's where your people skills come in - you are finding out what works for you. What you say, how you say it, and when you say it are all important. What you said may have worked at that particular moment in that game, but in a different situation with the same coach may blow up. Also, some officials with their personalities might be able to get away with saying things that you or I cannot.

I had a short conversation with a coach once after a travel call against his team late in the first half:

Coach: "Jim, I know that was a travel, and I'm not arguing that, but did you know you've called 7 travels against us, and only 2 against them?"

Me: "?" (Then I glance up at the scoreboard)

Me: "Coach, I see the fouls are 6-0 in your favor; do you want us to even those up as well?"

Coach: "(...grumble...)No."

Not a word about counts the rest of the game. Now, this was a coach who is known to be a little excitable, so I was taking a chance. But, in this case, it worked - he was trying to get a subtle point across, and I got a subtle point back to him. I haven't used that line any other time, and I may never use it again. But it just worked at that particular moment.
I've had similar conversations with coaches about fouls and the score. If he's losing and says "the foul count is 8-1", I told one coach that "no where in the rule book does it say the foul count should be even." If he's winning I may say "the score's not even either, would you like us to change that?" This has been done with coaches that I know dish it out and take it well! They normally just smile!

Mark Padgett Thu Jul 30, 2009 01:32pm
I had a coach tell me once that the foul count was 12-3. I told him I was surprised. He asked me why I was surprised. I told him I was surprised he could count to 12 without taking his shoes off. He thought it was funny. Oh yeah - I knew the guy pretty well.

M&M Guy Thu Jul 30, 2009 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 617998)
:rolleyes:

I don't understand the infatuation with having "lines" to give to coaches. Why not communicate with a coach the same you would any other person? Smart remarks will result in bad situations and we already have emotions running wild (it is an emotional game).
For me, it's not an infatuation with a good "line", but how to communicate what I want to communicate in a very short time. For the most part, I try to be as professional as possible, but I can be kind of smart-a$$ sometimes, (even when dealing with any other person), and it works only if the person I'm talking to knows me well enough. Otherwise, I have to find a way to communicate a couple of thoughts at once while running past a coach, or in the short time during a FT attempt. That's where some of these "lines" come in handy.

For example, what I want to say: "You know what coach, I'm not sure we're watching the same game. You keep begging for calls that my partners and I have not seen. But, being the nice guy I am, I will still acknowledge your complaints, and perhaps there's a chance we've actually missed something, so we'll work harder to see if we can see the same things you do."

What I actually say: "I hear you coach." Same point gets communincated, but in a lot shorter time.

just another ref Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 617660)
No one here would say the initial signal makes it too late, JAR. This is not the blarge discussion, which is the only time a preliminary signal is binding. Strawmen do burn rather quickly, though, don't they?

This, as always, is debatable.


Subtlety is often wasted on me. I don't really know what this means.

Adam Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 618088)
This, as always, is debatable.
Only by you. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 618088)
Subtlety is often wasted on me. I don't really know what this means.
I apologize, as I was being a bit snippy. My point was, no one here has ever said that prelim signals can't be changed (except in the case of the blarge).

Essentially, you built a strawman argument and burned it down quickly.

jdmara Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 617627)
I've found a little trick over the years of officiating. If the coach is upset with the call, you know you've blew it, and it's not a good time to admit to that mistake directly...Take a round about approach.

Back up to the coach (as he is, I'm sure "talking" with you) and ask him, "Coach/Bill/etc..., what did you see on that play?" You've put him in the position to vent and it probably seems to him that he is getting somewhere. "I saw something a little different; however, you may be right. I'll work the angles better to see it next time."

I've always received position feedback from coaches. Never has a coach exploded with the situation and everyone tends to end up "happy"

-Josh
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun (Post 617630)
What if you had a good angle and saw the play correctly? If you know you missed a call, what is wrong with cutting to the chase and saying so?

I don't like "I'll work the angles better to see it next time" just like I don't like a pregame saying something like "We are going to work hard for you."

Just my opinion.
tomegun-

We all know there are times you can admit mistakes and times you can't. If I blew a call and I believe the coach is going to react favorably to that admission, then you're darn right I'll say, "Coach, I missed that one. I apoligize." But if I'm not on best terms with the coach because he thinks I'm biased or one of my partners, his team is getting stomped, etc...I am going to put him in the situation to explain himself while he vents. As a lot of us know, coaches just like to vent.

-Josh

Hugh Refner Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 618101)
..... prelim signals can't be changed (except in the case of the blarge).
Where in the NF Officials Manual does it say this? I realize it would be bad to do so, but I'm not sure you can state "can't" as an absolute without any exception pertaining to this.

Adam Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Refner (Post 618104)
Where in the NF Officials Manual does it say this? I realize it would be bad to do so, but I'm not sure you can state "can't" as an absolute without any exception pertaining to this.
Case book, my friend, and it's very specific. One official signals a charge, the other signals a block (thus it's a blarge). By rule (case), you must go with a double foul.

If someone doesn't do it first, I'll find the case play when I get home tonight.

just another ref Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 618105)
Case book, my friend, and it's very specific. One official signals a charge, the other signals a block (thus it's a blarge). By rule (case), you must go with a double foul.

If someone doesn't do it first, I'll find the case play when I get home tonight.
4.19.8 C But it doesn't say signals, it says calls.

The two terms are not interchangeable if you ask me, which no one ever does.

Raymond Thu Jul 30, 2009 02:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 618102)
tomegun-

We all know there are times you can admit mistakes and times you can't. If I blew a call and I believe the coach is going to react favorably to that admission, then you're darn right I'll say, "Coach, I missed that one. I apoligize." But if I'm not on best terms with the coach because he thinks I'm biased or one of my partners, his team is getting stomped, etc...I am going to put him in the situation to explain himself while he vents. As a lot of us know, coaches just like to vent.

-Josh
I think, rather "I know", Tomegun was referring to the verbiage "I'll work harder to get a better angle". It implies 1) that you are not already attempting to do so; and 2) what's to say you didn't already have the best angle and you still just missed the play. It's something that should go unsaid as it can open up a Pandora's Box of comments in response from the coach, or in other words, it's too much verbiage to give to the coach.

Short, simple statements work best, IMO. "Maybe I missed that one", "Maybe I didn't get the best look on that play", "I didn't see that play the same way you did".

For outright flub-ups: "Coach, you're right, I blew that call"

mbyron Thu Jul 30, 2009 03:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 618107)
4.19.8 C But it doesn't say signals, it says calls.

The two terms are not interchangeable if you ask me, which no one ever does.
OK, I'll ask: why on earth would anyone in his right mind deny that signaling a foul constitutes calling it? :D

Adam Thu Jul 30, 2009 03:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 618107)
4.19.8 C But it doesn't say signals, it says calls.

The two terms are not interchangeable if you ask me, which no one ever does.
We have, and here's the question that has been posed:
Are you suggesting this case play refers to both officials actually reporting the foul to the table? If it means something beyond the signal, what does it mean?

The options as I see them:
1. "calls" equals "signals" in this case.
2. "calls" means reporting the fouls.
3. "calls" means both officials refuse to back down.

fiasco Thu Jul 30, 2009 03:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 618113)
OK, I'll ask: why on earth would anyone in his right mind deny that signaling a foul constitutes calling it? :D
Look in your book. It's called a "preliminary" signal. Preliminary connotates that it can be changed.

"Calling" a foul means to report the foul. This occurs at the table, not at the spot of the foul.

fiasco Thu Jul 30, 2009 03:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 618116)
We have, and here's the question that has been posed:
Are you suggesting this case play refers to both officials actually reporting the foul to the table? If it means something beyond the signal, what does it mean?

The options as I see them:
1. "calls" equals "signals" in this case.
2. "calls" means reporting the fouls.
3. "calls" means both officials refuse to back down.
Poor editing, IMO. Should read "signals." I don't think I've ever in my life witnessed two officials going to the table and intentionally reporting two different fouls on the same play.

Ch1town Thu Jul 30, 2009 03:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 618126)
Look in your book. It's called a "preliminary" signal. Preliminary connotates that it can be changed.

"Calling" a foul means to report the foul. This occurs at the table, not at the spot of the foul.
Hmmmmm ~ glad you cleared that up, I was always under the impression that we "called" the foul at the spot & "reported" them to the table.


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