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admitting to a coach you made a mistake
I have general question about dealing with coaches. If you admit to a coach that you have made a mistake on a call or no call, he responds by saying that that mistake is in a critical time of the game and he yells at you very loudly to show you up. How do you respond to that or do you respond at all.
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whack!!!!
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Definitely a HTBT situation. You have to know when or if you should admit a mistake to a coach. If he is being boisterous and making a scene you have to know when to draw the line. If he crosses the line, he has earned a technical.
-Josh |
Communication with coaches
General Techniques:
If you’ve missed a call or made a mistake; admit it. This technique can only be used sparingly, perhaps once a game. Specific Communication Examples: Coach has a good point and might be right. “You’ve got a good point and might be right about that play.” “You might be right, that’s one we’ll talk about at halftime/intermission/the next time out.” “You might be right; I may not have had the best angle on that play.” Source: Topeka (Kansas) Officials Association |
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"You're right, coach. I missed that call" is admitting a mistake. It's dumb to teach someone they should admit their mistake and then teach them how to get around admitting it. :rolleyes: |
The only time you should admit a mistake is when the mistake is obvious or a clear rules violation. If it is simply a judgment call and it was close, you should not have to admit a mistake. If you are constantly admitting to mistakes, then something has to change.
It is hard to tell in this situation if a T was warranted. It would really depend on who you are talking and how they are talking to you. I can see how this could lead to a T, but it is not automatic by any means. Most coaches should realize you messed up and move on. If they do not, then you have to take care of business or walk away. Then that coach would never get my ear again if they cannot be professional. Peace |
I've found a little trick over the years of officiating. If the coach is upset with the call, you know you've blew it, and it's not a good time to admit to that mistake directly...Take a round about approach.
Back up to the coach (as he is, I'm sure "talking" with you) and ask him, "Coach/Bill/etc..., what did you see on that play?" You've put him in the position to vent and it probably seems to him that he is getting somewhere. "I saw something a little different; however, you may be right. I'll work the angles better to see it next time." I've always received position feedback from coaches. Never has a coach exploded with the situation and everyone tends to end up "happy" -Josh |
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I don't like "I'll work the angles better to see it next time" just like I don't like a pregame saying something like "We are going to work hard for you." Just my opinion. |
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In my second year, I was working a JV game. A1 went up for a shot, B1 get his hand on the ball, and A1 came down with it. Tweet! "Travel!" Damn, I knew it was wrong instantly. The coach wasn't happy, and as I came up the floor on the table side, I heard him shouting "That was a jump ball! That was a jump ball!" I looked at him, tapped my chest to signal "my bad," and said "you're right, coach." He look flummoxed for a moment, and then said, "uh, thank you." Not a peep for the rest of the night. |
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If done at the right time and rarely, it can work well. "Coach, I'm sure you're right but I got straight lined."
IMO, it works best for no-calls. |
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Since I've never made a mistake, I really can't help. :D
OK, seriously - I think it depends on the context of how the coach reacts. If you make a call and the coach immediately has a demonstrative reaction and it's a coach that has been relatively straight forward in the past, you probably should take pause and ask yourself if you may have erred. If so, and you have time to correct the call, you should consider doing so. If this is what happens, you probably won't have to say anything to the coach. However, if you realize you made a mistake after it's too late to change anything and the mistake was on a rules interpretation, not a judgment call, you might want to say to the coach something like, "I know, I know, we can discuss it later". Then do so at the next break. Also, if your realization of the mistake happens quickly, whether the coach complains or not, confer with your partner. It's much easier to explain that he or she had a better angle to see the play and because of that you're changing your initial call than to say you blew it. Remember, judgment is always subjective and your ability to call the game properly will come with experience. |
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In the OP, he admitted a mistake and the coach wouldn't let it go. If that's me, I'm going to let him vent a while as it was my mistake and then I'm telling him we are moving on. If he doesn't want to move on and refuses to let go, I'm walking away. What he does when I walk away will dictate if he needs to be stuck or not. Mregor |
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Is there something I can say that if he responds inappropriately to then his response is no longer owned by him, but by me? I am not sure I accept this suggestion that something *I* say somehow forces another adult to say something he should not, and therefore it is no longer his fault, but mine. |
It's not about force, it's about attitude. Sarcasm rarely plays well with emotionally wrought people, and we know that going in. It's just not funny to them and usually occasions (I won't say 'causes') an inappropriate response, and that's almost always counter-productive.
Answer questions, don't discuss. Be honest but concise. Do your job. |
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Coach: "that's 9 fouls to 2" Ref: "Are you accusing me of cheating?" Coach: "Now that you mention it, yes." Whack! Oracle's advice may not be directly baiting him, but it's certainly a leading question. Or, at the very least, it could be taken that way by a coach who is caught up in the game. |
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There could be some people skills needed to determine how and when to use this approach. In some situations, simply ignoring the comment is best. For others, this question serves as the warning that we are done playing word games. |
I can see your point, but I'm not sure it applies to the OP. I think when, where, and with whom are very important factors for this. If you're acknowledging a mistake, I don't think it's generally best to take this approach. The whole point of the conversation is to ease tensions by letting the coach know you are aware you screwed up; I've never had that go bad when I've done it. Then again, I don't recall doing that with the same coach twice. And usually, it was a matter of getting straight lined, or acknowledging to the winning coach in a blowout that I may have missed a borderline travel on the losing team. (the expected thing around here whether I agree or not)
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I just don't like the idea that we might "bait" someone, I guess - like it is our job to make sure they don't have a reason to say something they should not. At the end of the day, they are responsible for what they say, as I am responsible for what I say. While I am aware that I can say things that will anger them, that doesn't in any way, IMO, release them to go ahead and say something they should not. And the idea seems, to me, to simply give them an excuse for going off - they can just claim "Hey, that official baited me!". I guess it comes back to one of my pet peeves - the idea that our job includes trying to convince adults to act like adults. Anyway, not a huge deal, I suppose. Such is life - sometimes we have to do what even if we don't like it. |
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In terms of the OP, I agree with you that occasionally admitting an obvious mistake can go a long way towards a good coach/official relationship. And, as others have already mentioned, it must be used vary sparingly. |
I think the one time I said something like that when perhaps I shouldn't was very similar to the posited scenario. Some kind of lopsided foul count (I don't remember specifically) and the coach said something like that.
Coach: "Jeff, come on, we are at 7-2 now!" Me: "Yeah coach, you really should tell your guys to stop fouling". It actually went over pretty well, but I wish I hadn't said it. He actually laughed, but you never know with something like that. I normally would not say something like that, but it just kind of felt "right" at the particular moment. Was I "baiting" him? |
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And please try not to have that conversation with under 2 minutes to go in a competitive game :) "Only once & never a gamer" is what I've heard. |
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Coach made a statement that you weren't required to respond to & you addressed his "fact" with a "fact" of your own. I like that response! "I just call them, I don't count them coach" is a good one too, if you choose to address it. |
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That's where your people skills come in - you are finding out what works for you. What you say, how you say it, and when you say it are all important. What you said may have worked at that particular moment in that game, but in a different situation with the same coach may blow up. Also, some officials with their personalities might be able to get away with saying things that you or I cannot. I had a short conversation with a coach once after a travel call against his team late in the first half: Coach: "Jim, I know that was a travel, and I'm not arguing that, but did you know you've called 7 travels against us, and only 2 against them?" Me: "?" (Then I glance up at the scoreboard) Me: "Coach, I see the fouls are 6-0 in your favor; do you want us to even those up as well?" Coach: "(...grumble...)No." Not a word about counts the rest of the game. Now, this was a coach who is known to be a little excitable, so I was taking a chance. But, in this case, it worked - he was trying to get a subtle point across, and I got a subtle point back to him. I haven't used that line any other time, and I may never use it again. But it just worked at that particular moment. |
:rolleyes:
I don't understand the infatuation with having "lines" to give to coaches. Why not communicate with a coach the same you would any other person? Smart remarks will result in bad situations and we already have emotions running wild (it is an emotional game). |
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I had a coach tell me once that the foul count was 12-3. I told him I was surprised. He asked me why I was surprised. I told him I was surprised he could count to 12 without taking his shoes off. He thought it was funny. Oh yeah - I knew the guy pretty well.
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For example, what I want to say: "You know what coach, I'm not sure we're watching the same game. You keep begging for calls that my partners and I have not seen. But, being the nice guy I am, I will still acknowledge your complaints, and perhaps there's a chance we've actually missed something, so we'll work harder to see if we can see the same things you do." What I actually say: "I hear you coach." Same point gets communincated, but in a lot shorter time. |
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This, as always, is debatable. Subtlety is often wasted on me. I don't really know what this means. |
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Essentially, you built a strawman argument and burned it down quickly. |
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We all know there are times you can admit mistakes and times you can't. If I blew a call and I believe the coach is going to react favorably to that admission, then you're darn right I'll say, "Coach, I missed that one. I apoligize." But if I'm not on best terms with the coach because he thinks I'm biased or one of my partners, his team is getting stomped, etc...I am going to put him in the situation to explain himself while he vents. As a lot of us know, coaches just like to vent. -Josh |
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If someone doesn't do it first, I'll find the case play when I get home tonight. |
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The two terms are not interchangeable if you ask me, which no one ever does. |
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Short, simple statements work best, IMO. "Maybe I missed that one", "Maybe I didn't get the best look on that play", "I didn't see that play the same way you did". For outright flub-ups: "Coach, you're right, I blew that call" |
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Are you suggesting this case play refers to both officials actually reporting the foul to the table? If it means something beyond the signal, what does it mean? The options as I see them: 1. "calls" equals "signals" in this case. 2. "calls" means reporting the fouls. 3. "calls" means both officials refuse to back down. |
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"Calling" a foul means to report the foul. This occurs at the table, not at the spot of the foul. |
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We all know that is possible for an official to come up with a signal that is not what they intended....visually indicates a charge while stating that is a block or vice versa. It doesn't happen often but it does happen and it is usually on a bang-bang play....not unlike the situations that lead to a blarge. What if one official signals and states that he has a block while the other official signals a charge but yells out block (making a signal and statement that contradict)? In the individual case, the official just eats a little crow and makes one call. Now, when it is complicated by a "blarge", does the official get to correct himself, knowing that he really meant to call what his parter was also calling and just simply came up with the wrong signal (imagine a foul that could not be mistaken but the offical just has a misfire in his motor control...defender flying into the side of the shooter knocking the shooter into the 3rd row). |
I agree that the call is made at the spot. However, I see nothing that undeniably binds the signal and the call. In any other case, we can say "Oops, I made the wrong signal. This is what I meant." Yet in this case be are required to stick with two calls when it is impossible for the two to happen at the same time.
Consider the following: A1 drives on B1. B1 has good position all the way. A1 continues the drive and I anticipate a PC foul. At the last second, A1 makes a spectacular, Kobe Bryant like spin move and fools B1. B1 lunges to try to maintain his position, but is clearly late to the spot and commits a blocking foul. I ignore the travel, like they do on tv, and blow the whistle to reward the kid for his Sportscenter worthy move. Unfortunately, my hand failed to get the memo, and attaches itself to the back of my head. My partner is a better official than me, and whistles the foul and makes the correct signal. Now, according to the masses, we must enforce a double foul, because we are obligated by this preliminary signal, which in this case was bogus. |
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What are the two signals/calls we're talking about.... 1. Block...unambiguous. 2. Player Control....ambiguous...could be a charge or any one of the other 4 types of fouls since the PC foul is just a foul committed by the player with the ball without respect to the type of foul. So, just because one official comes up with a PC signal doesn't mean that it is a charge and that the situation is impossible. It could be two different and independent fouls. One could have the defender for extending their knee into the dribbler (block) while the other has the dribbler for an push-off (illegal use of hands) into the defender's gut....two different points of contact and two different fouls....neither one that contradicts the other....both can be right. Now, we're back to determining which came first or calling a legitamate double foul. |
From a coaches point of view, for me it would add creditability to an official if they admit mistake. Now, I do not want to hear that every time down the court, but I see nothing wrong with admission. Just be confident when speaking to the coach. Look the coach in the eye, say you blew the call, and move on..if the coach wants to make a big deal out of it, then that is on the coach.
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The Infamous Blarge ...
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What binds the signal and the call is the case play. |
Kind of reminds me of the story of an umpire in a Major league game back in the 50's...Bang Bang play at 3rd base...Umpire yells "SAFE" but gives the out signal. Umpire says "I know I called you safe, but 30,000 people here think you're out, so you're out."
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This past winter I had a play as the lead in a two man crew. A-1 dribbled to his left, pulled up for a jumper, B-1, guarded it perfectly and was right on A-1's shooting hand. While in the air, A-1 drops the ball to the floor, B-1 never touched it. I froze. Absolutely froze. I knew it was a violation then, I know it now. I did not blow my whistle, raise my hand, scratch myself, nothing. Just stood there. B's coach threw a fit. If I thought I could have gotten away with a blocked/deflected shot, I would have but this was right in front of B's bench and the coach had an even better look then I did. He screamed at me, "that's a double dribble! How could you miss that? He can't do that!" Next dead ball, a timeout was called, I reported it and went over to B's coach as the throw-in was near his bench. I turned to him and in a voice only he and I could hear, I admitted I blew it. He replied with, "I don't care. That was a HUGE call in a game like this." I turned and began the throw-in procedure. For the next trip or two, while his team was trailing, he would say "that was a huge no call" as I ran past his bench. Next chance I got I told him (in the same calm, quiet voice) the play was a long time ago in the scheme of the game, it is a close game, his team is playing great, and he should focus on winning this game with his players rather than something he cannot control. If he did not, he would not be on the sideline to see the end result. That seemed to calm him down. Of course, team A's coach now thought every call that went against his team was a "make up call" but my partner felt his wrath and ended up dealing with him. |
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You said it: Quote:
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Found this quote by you on the subject. I'm sure others have said more or less the same thing. This indicates that you think the preliminary (block/charge) signal is the key to the whole blarge mess. So if you go up with a fist and no prelim, but your partner immediately signals pc, does this mean you have the option of blarge or pc? If both of you go up with just a fist, with no prelim, but had intentions of making opposite calls, are you obligated to go with a double foul? If not, then why not? |
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2. You were right to tell the coach to stop. Maybe even late. 3. You said that he "should focus on winning this game" -- I try never to tell coaches what they should do. After all, I don't want them to tell me what to do. 4. You threatened the coach ("If he did not, he would not be on the sideline..."). Threatening paints you into a corner and makes you seem to be a bully. You told him to stop, and he knows the consequences of continuing. That's sufficient. |
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At my clinic in June, the clinician gave this advice for blarges. Some crews hold their prelim on a double whistle and then let the official whose primary it is make the call. This guy suggested that it's often better to sell a call on a blarge, and if you're waiting you're not selling. So his recommended mechanic was: let L sell the call. As T or C, get in the habit of doing 2 things: (1) hold your signal on a double whistle, and (2) when your partner sells his call, nod vigorously, as if that's what you had too. ;) |
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Mbyron, we are thinking alike. |
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Ridiculous |
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I understand what you mean by "threatening" and putting myself into a tougher position. I have not given a ton of T's in my high school officiating career. Nor have I felt I have needed to upon reflection so I don't have a reputation or anything (that I'm aware of :cool:) I think I was caught up in the fact that I knew I screwed up so obviously in front of a packed gym and continually heard it from the coach. Sort of a heat of the moment type of thing I guess. |
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I still think it is corny. |
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Peace |
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Peace |
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Peace |
Another little tidbit from camps was the discussion that a double whistle can be either one official reaching and getting something or a "confirmation whistle, especially down the stretch". In fact one camp stressed that in close games down the stretch, "confirmation whistles" are good things. Don't necessarily agree but wanted to know if anyone else heard this at camp?
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In the paint, a triple whistle isn't a bad thing either... |
It was described pretty much in the same vein as the nod. The clinicians also pointed out that on plays to the basket, a double whistle can be a good thing. All the camps were 3 person camps.
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That being said, double whistles are good at times but if you watch NBA games, which I'm sure most don't! Ha they have a lot of single whistles on obvious fouls and that's because they are very aware of their partners and only have whistles when they are absolutely certain the official who "should" be blowing doesn't and then they come in with their whistle. Its not a secondary whistle because it is more than likely a dual coverage area. For example, a player who gets obviously bodychecked on the way to the hole, the trail and slot are aware that it is headed to the hoop and will allow the lead to blow and if for whatever reason, he doesn't react then the slot or trail will react accordingly. I would much rather have a double whistle on a difficult play than on an obvious foul. anyone can call a blatantly obvious foul from anywhere on the floor but knowing when and when not to have double whistles is a true art of officiating, imo. |
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I agree with the rest of your thoughts. |
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