To reach or not reach

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fiasco

If I see something that you miss,

And what makes you think I missed the call. Officiate your primary and trust your partner (especially when it involves him making a judgement call on the ball). I won't say anything the first time you put air in your whistle to make a call on the ball when I have on ball coverage; I will assume that you had a brain fart. But if you persist in making a habit it we are going to have a serious one sided conversation very quickly.

MTD, Sr.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

And what makes you think I missed the call.

Who knows. Maybe you didn't have a good angle. Maybe you are the one who had the brain fart. Maybe you just plain missed it. But as I said before, if I see it, and it’s not outrageous for me to be looking there, and you miss it, and I’m 100% sure, I’m calling it. I don’t have time to go through all the scenarios as to why you didn’t call it. It just needs to be called.

But if you persist in making a habit it we are going to have a serious one sided conversation very quickly.

Trust me, it won't be one-sided. I’ll happily point out that, as I’ve said before, it’s not called your ONLY area of coverage, it’s called your PRIMARY area of coverage. I’ll give you the chance to put air in your whistle, but if you don’t, and I see it for sure, I’m blowing the whistle.

As I said, in my pre-game, I’ll tell you to do the same for me, and at the next timeout, or at halftime, or after the game, I’ll ask you what you saw and say thanks for getting the play right.

This isn't my personal philosophy. This is NFHS by the book. Get It Right, No Matter What.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I’ll tell you to do the same for me, and at the next timeout, or at halftime, or after the game, I’ll ask you what you saw and say thanks for getting the play right.

Too bad for the greatest game in the world, that "thank you", isn't the thought process for officials across the board
I guess the easier route would be to say, "stay out of my area."
Trust your partner? Absolutely, but keep the team officiating concept in mind.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Too bad for the greatest game in the world, that "thank you", isn't the thought process for officials across the board
I guess the easier route would be to say, "stay out of my area."
Trust your partner? Absolutely, but keep the team officiating concept in mind.

It's great when you come into my primary and get one right that I was screened out on. But when you come into my primary and get it wrong, especially when it's right in front of me, then both of us look bad. That's not good for the team officiating concept. Respect your partner's primary and trust him.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Smitty

It's great when you come into my primary and get one right that I was screened out on. But when you come into my primary and get it wrong, especially when it's right in front of me, then both of us look bad. That's not good for the team officiating concept. Respect your partner's primary and trust him.

Agreed. Which is why I only blow the whistle when I'm 101% sure.

And, you being screened out has nothing to do with it. I don't have time to decide WHY you missed the play. Only that you missed it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Agreed. Which is why I only blow the whistle when I'm 101% sure.

And, you being screened out has nothing to do with it. I don't have time to decide WHY you missed the play. Only that you missed it.

Then you aren't doing enough thinking on the court. Attempting to understand what your partner can see and is doing is a major part of officiating. In fact, that's the partnership aspect of it. What you advocate is just calling your own game. It seems to me that you act more like an individual than part of a team.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then you aren't doing enough thinking on the court. Attempting to understand what your partner can see and is doing is a major part of officiating. In fact, that's the partnership aspect of it. What you advocate is just calling your own game. It seems to me that you act more like an individual than part of a team.

There's nothing I can think of that is more "me" centric than letting your partner "live or die" on a non-call that you could have gotten. You're hanging your partner out to dry because of some unwritten code certain officials seem to subscribe to.

The bottom line is that, when the play is over, we'll talk about it. I have my perspective, you have yours. What I "think" is going on may actually not be the case. But when I see something, and I KNOW I see it, I'm going to wait for you to blow your whistle, then I'm following NFHS instruction and blowing my whistle.

I can think of no other reason, other than ego, why an official would have a problem with me reasonably coming into their area to catch something they missed (for whatever reason).

I've had plenty of occasions where a partner picked up something that was in my primary that I missed. That's teamwork, and I've expressed such to partners I've had rather than launching into some meaningless diatribe about "coming into my area" as if I own that section of the court.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Who knows. Maybe you didn't have a good angle. Maybe you are the one who had the brain fart. Maybe you just plain missed it. But as I said before, if I see it, and it’s not outrageous for me to be looking there, and you miss it, and I’m 100% sure, I’m calling it. I don’t have time to go through all the scenarios as to why you didn’t call it. It just needs to be called.



Trust me, it won't be one-sided. I’ll happily point out that, as I’ve said before, it’s not called your ONLY area of coverage, it’s called your PRIMARY area of coverage. I’ll give you the chance to put air in your whistle, but if you don’t, and I see it for sure, I’m blowing the whistle.

As I said, in my pre-game, I’ll tell you to do the same for me, and at the next timeout, or at halftime, or after the game, I’ll ask you what you saw and say thanks for getting the play right.

This isn't my personal philosophy. This is NFHS by the book. Get It Right, No Matter What.

fiasco:

It is obvious from your posts, that you are either a very very inexperienced basketball official or a troll. I have decided that you are a very very inexperienced basketball official and not a troll. I am not going to tell you my basketball officiating background because there are many many members of this board that will tell you that like the E.F. Hutton commerials of old, when I speak, people listien (at least they humor me and act like they are listening, ).

Now listen carefully, and I do mean listen and do what I tell you. Your first responsibility is to officiate your primary coverage area (PCA), and NOT officiate your partner(s) PCA. I can assure you that with ten (10) players running around on a court that is only 50 ft by 84 ft (H.S. dimensions) in size, you will have all the more than enough to do without worrying about your partner(s) PCA.

With regard to fishing in my pond when you have enough fish in your own pond, you can bet your sweet bippy (Google Rowan and Martin's Laugh In) that the conversation that we have will be one sided and I will be doing talking and you will be doing the listen, and if you still insist in fishing in my pond I have the experience to make the rest of our game a living hell for you. And I can do it while still looking and acting professional.

So get your head and a$$ wired together (ask a Marine what that means) and get rid of the notion that you and only you have the correct call on everything that happens on the basketball court even if it happens in your partner(s) PCA.

Am I irritated with your attitude right now? Yes I am. I just wish that you could attend a basketball officials camp and I could be a staffer at that camp. Your attitude would go over with that camp staffers like a lead ballon.

I will end this lecture at this point.

MTD, Sr.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

fiasco:

It is obvious from your posts, that you are either a very very inexperienced basketball official or a troll. I have decided that you are a very very inexperienced basketball official and not a troll. I am not going to tell you my basketball officiating background because there are many many members of this board that will tell you that like the E.F. Hutton commerials of old, when I speak, people listien (at least they humor me and act like they are listening, ).

Now listen carefully, and I do mean listen and do what I tell you. Your first responsibility is to officiate your primary coverage area (PCA), and NOT officiate your partner(s) PCA. I can assure you that with ten (10) players running around on a court that is only 50 ft by 84 ft (H.S. dimensions) in size, you will have all the more than enough to do without worrying about your partner(s) PCA.

With regard to fishing in my pond when you have enough fish in your own pond, you can bet your sweet bippy (Google Rowan and Martin's Laugh In) that the conversation that we have will be one sided and I will be doing talking and you will be doing the listen, and if you still insist in fishing in my pond I have the experience to make the rest of our game a living hell for you. And I can do it while still looking and acting professional.

So get your head and a$$ wired together (ask a Marine what that means) and get rid of the notion that you and only you have the correct call on everything that happens on the basketball court even if it happens in your partner(s) PCA.

Am I irritated with your attitude right now? Yes I am. I just wish that you could attend a basketball officials camp and I could be a staffer at that camp. Your attitude would go over with that camp staffers like a lead ballon.

I will end this lecture at this point.

MTD, Sr.

You sure do make a lot of logical leaps in your post. Do you do the same on the basketball court?

I couldn't care less what you think about my attitude. For some reason that's supposed to change how I officiate?

ETA: It's pretty clear from your post ("I will make the game a living hell for you") that you're probably one of the officials I was talking about in terms of ego. If you're going to make my game a "living hell" for me for following the prescribed NFHS mechanics, well, God help the people you really DO work with. Sheesh.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by fiasco

You sure do make a lot of logical leaps in your post. Do you do the same on the basketball court?

You actually did the same thing with me in the adult league thread. It's not so nice, is it?

I don't think you actually deserved what MTD said, so I wouldn't comment on that. I think I do understand what you are saying, and I think there are plenty of shades of gray on this subject. But I still would tend to assume that my partner has a better look than me in his primary. There are times when you really think you see something across the court, but your partner tells you it didn't happen that way when you talk about it later. I'm not sure you can be 100% certain when you're 30 feet away, but sure - once in a while you will be right. I believe a lot of what Nevadaref said to be more accurate, and to be the way the very top guys in my old association expected their partners to work. These guys almost say exactly what Nevada said - respect each other's primaries. If I don't call something in my primary, there's probably a reason. Never ever call anything right in front of me. In the paint - they might get screened if they are lead, but give them first shot - minimize the double whistles. That's the way I think the game should be called.

We miss a lot of things during a game - but blatantly getting one wrong from 30 feet away can really turn things sideways for you and your partner.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You actually did the same thing with me in the adult league thread. It's not so nice, is it?

Go back and read the thread, Smit. You started the logical leaps by claiming that I "have fun" handing out technical fouls. It all went downhill from there.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I agree with your post.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Go back and read the thread, Smit. You started the logical leaps by claiming that I "have fun" handing out technical fouls. It all went downhill from there.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I agree with your post.

Thank you - I think there was some miscommunication in the other thread and I didn't really mean what you think I meant, but I'm not going to dredge up all of that again. I have some big tournaments this weekend and next. I'm going to pay attention to how my partners and I work our areas and see if I would change my mind about any of these points.

One thing I agree with you wholeheartedly about is discussing this in your pregame with your partner(s)*. It's really important, no matter which philosophy you choose, that you're both (or all three) on the same page.

* I need to learn three man so I need to stop thinking in a 2-man only frame of mind

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

fiasco:

It is obvious from your posts, that you are either a very very inexperienced basketball official or a troll. I have decided that you are a very very inexperienced basketball official and not a troll. I am not going to tell you my basketball officiating background because there are many many members of this board that will tell you that like the E.F. Hutton commerials of old, when I speak, people listien (at least they humor me and act like they are listening, ).

Now listen carefully, and I do mean listen and do what I tell you. Your first responsibility is to officiate your primary coverage area (PCA), and NOT officiate your partner(s) PCA. I can assure you that with ten (10) players running around on a court that is only 50 ft by 84 ft (H.S. dimensions) in size, you will have all the more than enough to do without worrying about your partner(s) PCA.

With regard to fishing in my pond when you have enough fish in your own pond, you can bet your sweet bippy (Google Rowan and Martin's Laugh In) that the conversation that we have will be one sided and I will be doing talking and you will be doing the listen, and if you still insist in fishing in my pond I have the experience to make the rest of our game a living hell for you. And I can do it while still looking and acting professional.

So get your head and a$$ wired together (ask a Marine what that means) and get rid of the notion that you and only you have the correct call on everything that happens on the basketball court even if it happens in your partner(s) PCA.

Am I irritated with your attitude right now? Yes I am. I just wish that you could attend a basketball officials camp and I could be a staffer at that camp. Your attitude would go over with that camp staffers like a lead ballon.

I will end this lecture at this point.

MTD, Sr.

I may only have 22 years in this game, but when an experienced partner fishes in my pond, I normally respond with a "thank you." It's cause I was screened off or had other duties to attend to.

I hear the 25/75 studies passed around and I can honestly say I hope I pass on the ones that would've been incorrect calls. I do see things in my periphery but hope I have the experience and patience to pass on all those except those that need to be called.

The threatening part of this post I find disappointing, quite frankly. I do not sit and listen to halftime lectures from crusty old vets -- perhaps because I've slipped into those ranks myself without even realizing it. And sometime I am unhappy about a partner and what he does on the floor, but thankfully the game of basketball has a clock and I can spend my energies working the game and then getting out of Dodge as soon as I can afterwards. I'm certainly not wasting my energy on a "lecture" the guy wouldn't listen to in the first place.

[tomegun]

Wow, there sure is a lot of information in this thread. I missed this one because I've been at a camp and them working a "tryout" with pro rules. I only mentioned that because some pro terminology has been thrown around in this thread.

1. The pro game is different from the standpoint of off-ball fouls. Plus, with the size and skill of the players, angles are way more important and I feel that is a reason why officials may call out of what would traditionally be considered their primaries. In these situations, I appreciate the help.
2. There is a difference when talking about the high school or college game where the offenses/defenses require more attention off-ball. Take your best pro official and he/she would not call a college game the same way or it would confuse their partners (who normally do college). There goes part of the validation for comparison.
3. Officials like/love to watch the ball and that is why people always want to find a reason for doing it. For those (of us) officials who understand the fact that you don't call everything you see and you don't see everything, it burns us up when a ball-watcher is recognized.
4. What about team officiating? Everyone can't be the quarterback? Somebody has to do some zone blocking without watching the ball go down field. While all these plays are being recognized to "get it right" who is watching the hen house? How many threads to we have on here about getting a play off ball right? If all your partners need so much help with position adjustments, maybe you should be contacting your assigner, instructional chair or board member.
5. IMO, a good/experienced official knows when to reach and when to leave things alone.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I may only have 22 years in this game...

Does everyone realize that the amount of training, local games, etc. can make 5 years the equivalent to 20? Raise your hand it you've ever known an official who thought they deserved assignments because of how long they have been on the board regardless of their skill level. Yep, I thought everyone would raise their hand on that one.

Rich, nothing against you because I don't know you. I just wanted to point that out.