To reach or not reach

1st Q of a 2 person game, you're L & a player jumps to shoot a 20 FTer in the Ts lap. Recognizing his shot will be blocked, the player drops the ball, retrieves it (no whistle) then shoots the 15 FTer.

Would you go get that in front of your veteran partner?

3rd Q of the same game, you're T & a player gets a loose ball near the endline in front of the L with one knee on the ground, then stands up prior to dribbling the ball.

Again no whistle, are you going to get that?

[Smitty]

The obvious first response is: why are you looking there?

But since we sometimes see things, in the first case, can you be absolutely positively sure that the defensive player didn't touch the ball, causing it to drop? If you didn't see that play from a perfect angle and cannot be 100% sure of what you saw (not what you think you saw), you should let your partner live and die with it.

Second case, again you need to be 100% certain you saw it, and then I would only ever call it if I thought my partner was screened from seeing the kid's knee.

If it's a veteran partner, I'm letting him live and die with it. You shouldn't even be looking there in the first place.

Originally Posted by Smitty

The obvious first response is: why are you looking there?

But since we sometimes see things, in the first case, can you be absolutely positively sure that the defensive player didn't touch the ball, causing it to drop? If you didn't see that play from a perfect angle and cannot be 100% sure of what you saw (not what you think you saw), you should let your partner live and die with it.

Second case, again you need to be 100% certain you saw it, and then I would only ever call it if I thought my partner was screened from seeing the kid's knee.

If it's a veteran partner, I'm letting him live and die with it. You shouldn't even be looking there in the first place.

Uhh ohhh there's the ol' HS mentality rearing it's ugly head again

The exceptional official can chew bubble gum & walk at the same time, you know, multi-tasking.

I've invested quite a bit of change in myself over the past few summers by attending high level, quality camps, I've mixed in some HS camps as well.

It's funny because the HS camps I've attended all say stay in your primary, etc.

The DI & NBA camps I've attended says referee your PCA while seeing as much of the court as possible. As a matter of fact, they want two sets of eyes on particular plays with congested action areas. You know there are front & back sides to some plays right?

When I had the HS mentality I couldn't get past the first week of HS post-season. Then I started following the higher level camps advice & became a State Tourney Official. Go figure

Why are you looking there anyway is so basic...
If you have an unengaged match-up (non-competitive for the HS mentality refs) do you just stay there watching those 2 or 4 people or go to the next layer of the play that can hurt you???

In my first scenario, the shooter was a lefty, the T was at half-court on the shooters right side. So I snuck a peek to cover that left arm, if that's okay.
Many times a partners lack of hustle makes the exceptional official have to go outside of their PCA for the good of the GAME.

In the second scenario 8 players were below the FT line extended & I had nothing else going on, so I chose to look down there, if that's okay.

The other day I had a partner guessing on a 3 pt attempt. He didn't position adjust to see the feet & when he signalled the successful make, I said it was a two. He asked why was I looking up there anyway?? I said to help my partner get it right as we are all we got

FYI post entry plays in a 3 person game requires all 3 officials to work that play.
L looks for illegal contact by offense & defense on entry.
T picks up the pivot foot for travels.
Slot -errr- Ct is preparing for the curl play.

[Smitty]

You didn't say it was anything but a HS game, and it is 2 person, so that was where I was coming from. I understand that we see things out of our primary, especially when all (or most) of the players are out of our primary. But the parts of your situations that are most telling are that both scenarois you claim are right in front of your partner. Your veteran partner. So since you didn't like my answer, what would you do? What did you do? How did your partner react? I don't think there's a simple answer for these things. One could certainly argue that getting the play right is the most imoportant thing. My only concern is that you really saw it 100%. Often things look like something from far away but maybe you missed something. If you're comfortable making those calls, maybe you should. I would err on the side of not making those calls if they are right in front of my partner.

I find it interesting that you need to put your resume out there. I'm glad you're so impressed with yourself. Us HS mentality refs should get out of the way.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I find it interesting that you need to put your resume out there. I'm glad you're so impressed with yourself. Us HS mentality refs should get out of the way.

Smitty - you're starting to sound a little cranky since you left the great state of Oregon. Maybe you should return to the "World's Medical Marijuana Capitol".

[Smitty]

I am sounding cranky today, but everyone is so sensitive.

Maybe it's the 103 degree heat.

Originally Posted by Smitty

You didn't say it was anything but a HS game, and it is 2 person, so that was where I was coming from. I understand that we see things out of our primary, especially when all (or most) of the players are out of our primary. But the parts of your situations that are most telling are that both scenarois you claim are right in front of your partner. Your veteran partner. So since you didn't like my answer, what would you do? What did you do? How did your partner react?

I didn't think I had to say what level it was as basketball is basketball. Sure there are different rules, floor mechanics & signals, but basketball is basketball. Why not position adjust the way the best do it? Why not have the team officiating concept & mentality like the best do?

It wasn't that I didn't like your answer. Actually I did what you said & let him live/die with those. But I felt quite bad when the defensive team in both instances came to me with "you know you saw that, help him out."
If it were a gammer, I would've made it right.
If my partner was of equal or less experience, then I would've made it right.

I did ask my partner at the next break, why it wasn't a travel? He said because the ball slipped out of his hands... I knew that wasn't true but decided to leave it alone. I didn't even ask him about the second sitch

Originally Posted by Smitty

I find it interesting that you need to put your resume out there. I'm glad you're so impressed with yourself. Us HS mentality refs should get out of the way.

~Ahhh~ I didn't mean it like that Smitty, just explaining the different thought process from level to level & why I think the higher ups do it best!
Hardly impressed with myself Smitty, for I am just a mere HS official myself. The only time I get a sniff of college or pro ball is the summer & I'll be damned if the summer isn't almost over
Well just like the Bronco fans say, there's always next year!

[Smitty]

No worries. I am a little cranky today it seems. I apologize. I wish you luck with your development.

I think your second post was much more informative of the situation than your original post. Based on your original post, I would stand by my first answer.

The travel is a tough one if you think your partner truly missed it. I will let a travel go most of the time out of my area unless it's in the paint where my partner is clearly screened. Most of the time.

I would have been curious what your partner would have said about the other play - that seems like a much more interesting one. Guess we'll never know.

The only reason I commented on your boasting (or apparent boasting) is because from observation, I get the impression that college officials in general think they are superior to HS officials. I just hope you don't let it go to your head as you move up the ranks. Best of luck to you.

[Nevadaref]

Did your partner take home an equal game check?
Does the "exceptional" official get paid more for the extra calls which you advocate that he should make for his lesser partner?
I don't agree with doing someone else's job.
If you are doing more than your share of the task, then you aren't part of an equal partnership.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I did ask my partner at the next break, why it wasn't a travel? He said because the ball slipped out of his hands... I knew that wasn't true but decided to leave it alone.

This is exactly why you don't go make that long distance call. Your partner had a valid reason for deciding that the action was legal. You have no right to overrule his judgment of the play. Why do you think that your opinion of the action is superior to your partner's? What do we do when two partners see a play differently? How do we decide whose call takes precedence? You seem to think that it is the one who sounds the whistle. I happen to believe that we should defer to primary coverage areas.

Do you really want to know what I would have done had my partner made a such a travel call directly in front of me?

If I deemed that the player didn't travel by rule, I would sound my whistle a couple of times and loudly say, "No travel. That's an inadvertent whistle," and then quickly administer a throw-in to the team which had the ball. If that embarrasses the other official, that's too bad.
I see no reason why he should get to overrule my decision in my primary coverage area simply by putting air into his whistle. The whistle isn't some magical device which makes one correct.


Was that cranky enough for this thread?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

It's funny because the HS camps I've attended all say stay in your primary, etc.

The DI & NBA camps I've attended says referee your PCA while seeing as much of the court as possible. As a matter of fact, they want two sets of eyes on particular plays with congested action areas. You know there are front & back sides to some plays right?

When I had the HS mentality I couldn't get past the first week of HS post-season. Then I started following the higher level camps advice & became a State Tourney Official. Go figure

Why are you looking there anyway is so basic...
If you have an unengaged match-up (non-competitive for the HS mentality refs) do you just stay there watching those 2 or 4 people or go to the next layer of the play that can hurt you???

I'm not going to compare post-season success with you, but I disagree with how you are thinking. Yes, the NBA mentality is to have more than one set of eyes on certain plays, but that doesn't mean it is a free-for-all.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

It wasn't that I didn't like your answer. Actually I did what you said & let him live/die with those. But I felt quite bad when the defensive team in both instances came to me with "you know you saw that, help him out."

Are you using the opinions of players to validate your opinion/position?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

1st Q of a 2 person game, you're L & a player jumps to shoot a 20 FTer in the Ts lap. Recognizing his shot will be blocked, the player drops the ball, retrieves it (no whistle) then shoots the 15 FTer.

Would you go get that in front of your veteran partner?

3rd Q of the same game, you're T & a player gets a loose ball near the endline in front of the L with one knee on the ground, then stands up prior to dribbling the ball.

Again no whistle, are you going to get that?

I won't be as cranky as Smitty and Nevada, but I'm in the "let it go" camp on this one. It's not a train wreck that needs a whistle to save the game. It's not a player running down the court with the ball and not dribbling that grandpa can see from the parking lot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I won't be as cranky as Smitty and Nevada...

Don't make me call you cowardly.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Don't make me call you cowardly.

If I told you to shut up, would I come across as less cowardly?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

1st Q of a 2 person game, you're L & a player jumps to shoot a 20 FTer in the Ts lap. Recognizing his shot will be blocked, the player drops the ball, retrieves it (no whistle) then shoots the 15 FTer.

Would you go get that in front of your veteran partner?

3rd Q of the same game, you're T & a player gets a loose ball near the endline in front of the L with one knee on the ground, then stands up prior to dribbling the ball.

Again no whistle, are you going to get that?

BTW, on the 2nd one, I've made this call twice and regretted it both times because I was wrong. I apologized to both veteran officials before they even had a chance to ask me about it.