last to touch - first to touch

[Hugh Refner]

I worked a summer camp about 5 years ago in which I found out later that the 4 evaluators who were there intentionally questioned correct rule interps with some of the newer officials just to see if they would stand up for their beliefs. Only one (out of four) did and on the final day of camp, he was praised for "sticking to his guns when he knew he was right".

I'm not saying they came down hard on the other guys, they just wanted to make the point that if you are sure you have the rule right, you should tell your partner and offer to look it up.

Originally Posted by rsl

But this an old topic on this forum. I shouldn't incite anything.

Too late, you incited by posting.

Originally Posted by rsl

The rule book is the only ultimate authority (except for this forum of course ).

Hey! Brownnosing is not tolerated here! ummm, maybe just a wee bit!

[rsox34]

...Nobody should allow you to kick a rule like this evaluator wanted you to.
You and your crew should strive to get it right. I bet you'll never again have a problem with this type of play.

Originally Posted by rsl

By the time I posted here, I had checked the rule book and knew the answer
and knew I was right.

Standing in front of the evaluator, I wasn't so sure. I think the best advice
to a young official is not to argue with an evaluator. Most of the time the
more senior official is right, and you lose valuable mentoring time with your
nose in the rule book. Not to mention you may hurt your career.

I am only a second year official, but early on I decided never to trust anyone
on a rule interpretation. I always look it up myself to confirm later. The rule
book is the only ultimate authority (except for this forum of course ).

[ILMalti]

A few points are missing in your description

Where were B1 and A2 when they touched the ball?
When the ball was knocked out of A1 possesion did it touch the centre line or backcourt.

Cannot answer the question unless the above is known

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

A few points are missing in your description

Where were B1 and A2 when they touched the ball?
When the ball was knocked out of A1 possesion did it touch the centre line or backcourt.

Cannot answer the question unless the above is known

Not sure if FIBA is different, but the center line is the backcourt.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not sure if FIBA is different, but the center line is the backcourt.

Yes you are right they are one and the same, I really was trying to get an understanding of the position of B1 and the ball after B1 "knocks the ball"

At times the ball/feet on the line is/are overlooked, hence the question.

Regardless, i believe the answers are important to determine the call. No?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rsl

At a high school camp with NFHS rules.

A1 has control of the ball in the frontcourt. B1 knocks the
ball loose. A2 knocks the ball so B1 can't grab it, then chases
it down in back court.

I whistle back court violation. First one I have ever called on
the "last to touch - first to touch" rule.

Coach yells at me. At next time out, D2 evaluator tells me I
messed up because team control ended on B1's tap. I say
"yes sir" to the evaluator and smile.

4-12-3 says team control continues until opponent secures control.
9-9-1 says this is backcourt violation

What good is being right if nobody knows?
Or, did I kick this call and I am still clueless?

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Yes you are right they are one and the same, I really was trying to get an understanding of the position of B1 and the ball after B1 "knocks the ball"

At times the ball/feet on the line is/are overlooked, hence the question.

Regardless, i believe the answers are important to determine the call. No?

Based on the OP, "A2 knocks the ball so B1 can't grab it, then chases
it down in back court." This tells me, intuitively, that they are both starting from the front court. Whether the ball bounces on the line or completely in the BC isn't relevant, I don't think. I would agree that A2 and B1's positioning is important, but I think it's safely implied from the OP that they were both in the FC.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Based on the OP, "A2 knocks the ball so B1 can't grab it, then chases
it down in back court." This tells me, intuitively, that they are both starting from the front court. Whether the ball bounces on the line or completely in the BC isn't relevant, I don't think. I would agree that A2 and B1's positioning is important, but I think it's safely implied from the OP that they were both in the FC.

Do not mean to be argumentitive, but in the defense of the "observer" we cannot assume that all where in FC. The observer could have noticed something that RSL forgot to mention in their OP.
For discussion sake assume that B1 was in the upper left corner BC and knocked the ball at a 45 degree angle to the lower right corner BC, they (A1 and B1 ) would not be able to grab the ball and RSL description would still be valid.

Saying "yes sir" is good in the middle of a game; "yes sir, could we discuss later" would have been better.

[rsl]

You have it right. A1, B1, and A2 were just above free throw line extended in the front court when the play started. Sorry, that should have been part of the original description.

Since this discussion went a lot further than I anticipated, let me be more
clear. I made the the call, the coach questioned the call and we started
play again. At the next time out, the coach questioned the call again.
During the time out, we went opposite table to meet with the evaluator.
I asked the evaluator if I got the call right, he gave me the incorrect
response I noted above. But, that call was not really on his agenda- he
gave me a rather quick response and then moved on to several other things
that he wanted to tell me. As I said earlier, other than the incorrect rule interp,
he was a great evaluator with lots of good suggestions. And, I think the
incorrect rule interp was partially because he was in a hurry to get on to
other things during the time out.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Do not mean to be argumentitive, but in the defense of the "observer" we cannot assume that all where in FC. The observer could have noticed something that RSL forgot to mention in their OP.
For discussion sake assume that B1 was in the upper left corner BC and knocked the ball at a 45 degree angle to the lower right corner BC, they (A1 and B1 ) would not be able to grab the ball and RSL description would still be valid.

Saying "yes sir" is good in the middle of a game; "yes sir, could we discuss later" would have been better.

Given that the observer's rationale included nothing about where B1 or A2 were standing, we can make that assumption. His reasoning had to do with team control ending on a defensive tip, and there's no defense for that.

And don't worry about being argumentative, that's how this site works.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rsl

And, I think the
incorrect rule interp was partially because he was in a hurry to get on to
other things during the time out.

My issue with this is that his incorrect rule interp was based on a misunderstanding of a very basic rules tenent that has been the focus of a lot of rules changes over the past few years.

If he thinks team control ends on a defensive tip, that could lead to some very severe misapplications in some very tense situations.

[Johnny Ringo]

RSL ... I had the same exact play you are describing in a Holiday tournament between two rival high schools. With 8 seconds to go in regulation, the score tied and the home team in possesion of the ball, exactly what you described happened.

I made the call and the home coach and crowd went nuts.

Immediately I realized nobody in the gym new the correct rule. So, I decided to go explain to the coach - he wanted no part of it. As I walked away to continue the game, my partner (2-man crew) came to me and said I had made the wrong call. He said in such away that the home coach heard it.

The visitors failed to score and we went into overtime and the home team did win.

After the game I showed my partner the rule and also showed the home coach the rule - he came to speak with me about it. He still did not believe me and check with our association assignor - a guy he knew and respected.

Long story short - they all know now!

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

He said in such away that the home coach heard it.

OUCH! Say anything to your partner after the game about this part?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grunewar

OUCH! Say anything to your partner after the game about this part?

Yeah, did you show him the bus tread-marks all over your head and neck?!?