Closely Guarded Dilemma

[Adam]

Dude, you've copy/pasted that same passage half a dozen times, I think. The fact is, the NFHS has been known to put out a ruling or two that go against the rules. And BITS's thoughts here reflect my own. "a legal guarding position" is not necessarily synonimous with LGP, even though they seem to be close. My guess is it basically says you can't get a CG count if the defender is OOB, or is stretching a part of his body unnaturally into the 6 foot space.

As BITS alludes to, the NFHS isn't known for verbal precision in these matters.

Now, the fact is, the cases where a CG situation could come up without LGP being established are minimal.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Dude, you've copy/pasted that same passage half a dozen times, I think. The fact is, the NFHS has been known to put out a ruling or two that go against the rules. And BITS's thoughts here reflect my own. "a legal guarding position" is not necessarily synonimous with LGP, even though they seem to be close. My guess is it basically says you can't get a CG count if the defender is OOB, or is stretching a part of his body unnaturally into the 6 foot space.

As BITS alludes to, the NFHS isn't known for verbal precision in these matters.

Now, the fact is, the cases where a CG situation could come up without LGP being established are minimal.

with all due respect
Could I ask what makes you more knowledgeable then the NFHS? What makes BITS more knowledgeable? Are you or BITS official interpreter? Have you or BITS written to the NFHS to tell them about their elluded lack of "verbal precision". Let us know what they say to that,

An official NFHS statement shouldl be taken seriously, not pick and choose what you think applies or NOT.
I hope this does not sound too strong. Sorry if it does.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

with all due respect
Could I ask what makes you more knowledgeable then the NFHS? What makes BITS more knowledgeable? Are you or BITS official interpreter? Have you or BITS written to the NFHS to tell them about their elluded lack of "verbal precision". Let us know what they say to that,

An official NFHS statement shouldl be taken seriously, not pick and choose what you think applies or NOT.
I hope this does not sound too strong. Sorry if it does.

Don't bother starting a post with "with all due respect." I consider it a meaningless phrase similar to "no offense." For the issue we're talking about here, do a search on this site for discussions regarding an NFHS interp on backcourt violations.

The fact is, "NFHS" isn't some all knowing rules guru. It's a group of people that changes every year. And, in particular, it's a group of people with a propensity for issuing interps and POEs that are worded less than perfectly; hence the ambiguity surrounding whether a CG count requires LGP.

I'm done on this one.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

with all due respect
Could I ask what makes you more knowledgeable then the NFHS? What makes BITS more knowledgeable? Are you or BITS official interpreter? Have you or BITS written to the NFHS to tell them about their elluded lack of "verbal precision". Let us know what they say to that,

An official NFHS statement shouldl be taken seriously, not pick and choose what you think applies or NOT.
I hope this does not sound too strong. Sorry if it does.

None of us claims to be more knowledgeable than the NFHS. But each of us has a vested interest in and deep personal commitment to understanding the rules. So we study, we discuss, we debate. We also take very seriously the admonition from the opening paragraphs of the NFHS rules book: "...it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation." So we dig even deeper.

There is an inarguable lack of clarity surrounding this rule. You understand it to mean one thing; I have a different understanding of the same rule. And we each find clear evidence supporting our understanding when we read the same official materials. Those materials are simply not sufficiently clear, and may not even be consistent.

It happens. Quite a lot, actually. And small wonder when you consider the nature of the beast. Basketball is just a game, made up by a clever Canadian to keep a group of trouble-making American college guys occupied and out of trouble. It is an ever-evolving game, governed by an ever-changing body of rules, overseen by an ever-changing committee of folks who are no different than you and I. They each have their own background and experiences, personal preferences, individual understandings of the game and the rules, and even their own agendas. The real wonder of the thing is that the rules are as clear and consistent as they are.

The challenge for us is to keep on learning. That means we must keep our focus on what is right, and not who is right. So let's study and discuss and debate and argue, but let's not make it personal.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

None of us claims to be more knowledgeable than the NFHS. But each of us has a vested interest in and deep personal commitment to understanding the rules. So we study, we discuss, we debate. We also take very seriously the admonition from the opening paragraphs of the NFHS rules book: "...it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation." So we dig even deeper.

There is an inarguable lack of clarity surrounding this rule. You understand it to mean one thing; I have a different understanding of the same rule. And we each find clear evidence supporting our understanding when we read the same official materials. Those materials are simply not sufficiently clear, and may not even be consistent.

It happens. Quite a lot, actually. And small wonder when you consider the nature of the beast. Basketball is just a game, made up by a clever Canadian to keep a group of trouble-making American college guys occupied and out of trouble. It is an ever-evolving game, governed by an ever-changing body of rules, overseen by an ever-changing committee of folks who are no different than you and I. They each have their own background and experiences, personal preferences, individual understandings of the game and the rules, and even their own agendas. The real wonder of the thing is that the rules are as clear and consistent as they are.

The challenge for us is to keep on learning. That means we must keep our focus on what is right, and not who is right. So let's study and discuss and debate and argue, but let's not make it personal.

Thank you for words and advise. I just realized what BITS stands for.
My questions where written in frustration since it took hours in research and
all that work seemed to have been thrown out of the window with a "ah well NFHS is known to be ambiguos".
Nothing personal was intended. I should have had a "patient enter key"

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Thank you for words and advise. I just realized what BITS stands for.
My questions where written in frustration since it took hours in research and
all that work seemed to have been thrown out of the window with a "ah well NFHS is known to be ambiguos".
Nothing personal was intended. I should have had a "patient enter key"

Been there, done that, bought me a closet full of them tshirts.

I have sometimes argued a position for hours on end, only to find out I was flat out wrong. Dangit! Painful, but a useful learning experience. And I have done the same only to find out that there really was no one right answer. Double dangit! Not fair. Also painful. But usually a good learning experience in the end too.

My understanding of the closely guarded rule has grown through this discussion. Thanks for your time and thoughts. And for making me think and even work a little.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The challenge for us is to keep on learning. That means we must keep our focus on what is right, and not who is right. So let's study and discuss and debate and argue, but let's not make it personal.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Thank you for words and advise. Nothing personal was intended. I should have had a "patient enter key".

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Thanks for your time and thoughts. And for making me think and even work a little.

That's it? It's over? Now let's all sit around the campfire and sing a couple of choruses of "Kumbaya". Who brought the S'mores? Thank God JurassicReferee isn't around to see this. I think I'm gonna barf.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's it? It's over? Now let's all sit around the campfire and sing a couple of choruses of "Kumbaya". Who brought the S'mores? Thank God JurassicReferee isn't around to see this. I think I'm gonna barf.

Apparently I've been channeling my inner Jurassic lately, does that count?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's it? It's over? Now let's all sit around the campfire and sing a couple of choruses of "Kumbaya". Who brought the S'mores? Thank God JurassicReferee isn't around to see this. I think I'm gonna barf.

Shut up.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's it? It's over? Now let's all sit around the campfire and sing a couple of choruses of "Kumbaya". Who brought the S'mores? Thank God JurassicReferee isn't around to see this. I think I'm gonna barf.

We reached a stale mate. We need to address the question in a different "path" (No pun intended).
We are still researching; " whether the rules state that LGP is required before a count can start". People ideas and comments are usefull in helping the thought process and as such they should be appreciated. If you or JurassicReferee have a definitive answer to this obvioulsy involved question I would be very interested in your thoughts, Maturity suggests that people are thanked for their time and patience in sharing thoughts.

If you have to "barf" please do it off the court.

I am learning the forum mannerisms and so are many others. Like everything else in life you have a choice. Putting a pointless statement does not serve any one.

If I mis-understood your post main trust , I truely appologies; but barfing too me means you might have a stomach issue in which I would suggest you read all about Ginger