Closely Guarded Dilemma

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

As I said before NO count in Camron situation since they did not face each other. Sitiation 9.10.1C quite clearly says when a count has to be started. The "closely guarded" count rule is in Rule 9 not rule 4.10.

As you know the interpretations and rulings for all play situations have been approved by the rules committee and are "OFFICIAL"

Therefore please read situation 9.10.1c when a count should start and explain to me how camrons example fits is.

It doesn't....but it doesn't need to. As I said, this case mentions what is sufficient to get a count but it doesn't say that it is necessary. Two very different things.

.....

Originally Posted by ILMalti

now for Cameron

Please read rule 9.10.1b The situation you site (9.10.1D) is specific for that rule We are discussing 9.10.1A... Good try

Note that 9.10.1B says "In the situation outlined..." That expressly means the comments that follow are targeted at that very situation and are not intended to establish a general requirement.

9.1.1D is mentioned to disprove the claim that LGP is required for a CG count. And it does just that.

We're talking about the definition of CG vs. LGP. You've yet to cite one rule/case that says says CG requires LGP...only that LGP within 6' satisfies the requirement for CG.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't....but it doesn't need to. As I said, this case mentions what is sufficient to get a count but it doesn't say that it is necessary. Two very different things.

.....

Oh quite contrar (did I spell it right?) The situation is very very specific about the necessity of placing both feet on the playing court and facing the oppponenet before a count is started.

for starters the situation 9.10.1c is under the heading FrontCourt Closely-guarded Action
Secondly the wording is specific to say ".. As soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position" and now the situation emphasis what this is: "both feet on the court, facing the opponent, no other specific requirements"
Tell me what situation does 9.10.1c not cover as described. Even the one given in the thread is covered.

now for part 2

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

9.1.1D is mentioned to disprove the claim that LGP is required for a CG count. And it does just that.

We're talking about the definition of CG vs. LGP. You've yet to cite one rule/case that says says CG requires LGP...only that LGP within 6' satisfies the requirement for CG.

Sitaution 9.10.1d is under the sub title "Screening teemmates" and is sitautaion for rule 9.10.1B we cannot mix. this is a very different discussion then a closely guarded count or so i think
I have sited the situation numerous times and explained why CG COUNT requires LGP.

This discussion is : When does a CG 5 second count start? ie in reality rule 9.10.1A

OR

is this a discussion on what is CG (ie rule 4.10) but without a count?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Oh quite contrar (did I spell it right?) The situation is very very specific about the necessity of placing both feet on the playing court and facing the oppponenet before a count is started.

for starters the situation 9.10.1c is under the heading FrontCourt Closely-guarded Action
Secondly the wording is specific to say ".. As soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position" and now the situation emphasis what this is: "both feet on the court, facing the opponent, no other specific requirements"
Tell me what situation does 9.10.1c not cover as described. Even the one given in the thread is covered.

It is very specific...."for the situation oulined". The inclusion of those very words tell you that they don't intend for that to be the general rule but are describing that one play.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

now for part 2


Sitaution 9.10.1d is under the sub title "Screening teemmates" and is sitautaion for rule 9.10.1B we cannot mix. this is a very different discussion then a closely guarded count or so i think
I have sited the situation numerous times and explained why CG COUNT requires LGP.

This discussion is : When does a CG 5 second count start? ie in reality rule 9.10.1A

You're not quoting rules....you're quoting cases that give examples.

All of 9.10 is about CG, not just a-c.

"D" is precisely relevant in that it provides a counter example to your claim that LGP is required for CG. The only way to come to the right conclusion is to mix the rules/cases. It doesn't matter that it mentions "Screening Teammates". It is giving you a case (screening teammates) when a CG count can happen even if there is no LGP.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

OR

is this a discussion on what is CG (ie rule 4.10) but without a count?

The fundamentail question that is backed up by both rules and cases is that while LGP (being a strict subset of the more general "guarding") @ < 6' is suffienct to have a count it is also possilble to get a count without LGP merely by being within 6' in a guarding position...even if it is not LGP.

[ILMalti]

Cameron,

I am quoting situations and as you should know are considerd to be "official supplement" Show me where I mis quoted and I shall step back. So situations ARE VALID to discuss and understand the rules. They are blessed by the appropiate BB bodies. and they are as official as the rules. Can we at last agree on this before I continue. It would be a pointless discussion other wise.
If you have access to the IAABO hand book for example I refer you to the forward in the case book. If you have publications by the NFHS you should also find this statement ( stating that situations are official and supplement the rules)

Until you can agree that situations are official supplemets then it would be pointless to continue.

Were are the official interpretors when you need them

You must at least concede that Situation 9.10.1.D is under the official heading of "screening teammates" (with 9.10.3's situation odd they bundled them together ?) and that 9.10.1.a-c are under the official heading of "Front court closely guarded Action" and one could correctly state that the authors thought that the sitautions describe different scenarions ?

9.10.1D has no bearance to our discusion based on CG and when a count should start.

Until we agree on Rules and situations having the same weight for understanding and applying the rules ... all this is pointless.

thank you

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Cameron,

I am quoting situations and as you should know are considered to be "official supplement" Show me where I mis quoted and I shall step back. So situations ARE VALID to discuss and understand the rules. They are blessed by the appropriate BB bodies. and they are as official as the rules. Can we at last agree on this before I continue. It would be a pointless discussion other wise.

If you have access to the IAABO hand book for example I refer you to the forward in the case book. If you have publications by the NFHS you should also find this statement ( stating that situations are official and supplement the rules)

Until you can agree that situations are official supplements then it would be pointless to continue.

Absolutely agree....but you have to use them all, not just the ones that serve your argument. It doesn't matter how official they are if you apply them incorrectly or incompletely.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Were are the official interpretors when you need them

You must at least concede that Situation 9.10.1.D is under the official heading of "screening teammates" (with 9.10.3's situation odd they bundled them together ?) and that 9.10.1.a-c are under the official heading of "Front court closely guarded Action" and one could correctly state that the authors thought that the situations describe different scenarios ?

9.10.1D has no bearance to our discussion based on CG and when a count should start.

Until we agree on Rules and situations having the same weight for understanding and applying the rules ... all this is pointless.

thank you

You make the claim that LGP is a necessity for a CG count. If there is any case, anywhere, in any "official" source that says otherwise, your claim is proven false.

9.10.1D does exactly that. It defines a time when a CG count can/should start....all without ever mentioning anything related to having LGP.

All of 9.10, regardless of the casebook sub-categorizations are about closely guarded situations. That is what rule 9-10 is about...nothing else. Each case lists an example that a CG count can apply...each case is not restricting other situations. Having LGP is one way to get a count started but it is not the only way...as demonstrated by "D".

Rules are "broad" by their very nature. Cases, on the other hand, are typically "narrow", applying to the situation mentioned an ones similar to it. Cases rarely establish a broad meaning, but show examples of where the rules apply.

[Back In The Saddle]

ILMalti,

Your argument seems to hinge on a single case. Yes, cases are official and have the force of rule to them. But they are not the rules; they are some specific examples of how to apply the rules. It is usually a mistake to try to derive the actual rule from a single case. So let's look at closely guarding in more depth, starting with the actual rules.

NFHS 4-10 - A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team’s frontcourt, is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within six feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball. The distance shall be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler. A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player.

What are the requirements?

1. A player in control of the ball
2. In his/her team's front court
3. Continuously guarded by any opponent
4. Who is within six feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball.

What is up for discussion is what it means to be "guarded". But please note that it says only "guarded". It says nothing about Legal Guarding Position.

What is guarding?

NFHS 4-32-1 - Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded....

That is the fundamental definition of guarding. Not LGP, just guarding.

What are the requirements?

1. Placing the body - The implication here is a location on court (the distinction between a location on the court and how the guard's body is arrayed is central to your case)
2. In the path - The rule does not define it, but it does require it
3. Of an offensive opponent - restricts guarding to an activity the defense performs against its opponent
4. No minimum distance required between the guard and opponent - The guard and opponent could be 96 feet apart
5. The maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded - Short of making contact, the only distance of significance in guarding is the 6 feet required for a closely guarding.

Those are the requirements for closely guarding. Again, note that there is no mention of LGP. If I am in my opponents path, I am guarding him. If I am within six feet of him, I am closely guarding him. It's that simple.

Now, rule 4 is fundamental to most other rules in the rules book. It is common for a definition to contain multiple facets. Some will relate to one rule and some to a another rule. The guarding definition is that way.

Article 1 defines guarding, and establishes that when done from within six feet it is closely guarding. Articles 2 and 3 build on that and define LGP, how it's obtained, and what additional rights it grants to the guard. Articles 4 and 5 set specific time and distance requirements for guarding moving/stationary opponents with/without the ball. Articles 2-5 build on the definition of guarding, but they don't change it's relationship to closely guarding in any way. Whether you have LGP or not, whether you are guarding a moving or stationary opponent, you are still guarding. And if you are within six feet you are closely guarding.

That understanding is fundamental to understanding the cases. Let's look at your favorite:

9.10.1 SITUATION C: Team A has the ball in its own frontcourt. B1 stands within 6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line. RULING: In five seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, as soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the court, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant.

B1 is clearly guarding A1 (but how we know that really muddies the water). That he's within six feet means B1 is also closely guarding A1. That he is standing (implying two feet on the floor) facing A1 clearly bestows the additional status of LGP. Since the opponent has the ball, and is stationary, no time or distance is required. That's a lot of info we're given, and only some of it is relevant.

But why is B1 standing there, facing A1? It has nothing to do with LGP, and a little to do with guarding. The 9.1.x cases address rule 9-1, the closely guarded violation. And this particular case is even narrower than that.

The specific situation being addressed is easily deduced from the ruling. The narration looks right past the basic requirements of guarding and distance to address a single question, "Must the guard do anything else to be closely guarding?" The answer is, no. "No other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant."

You see, there exists a widespread (mis)interpretation that the defender must be "actively guarding" or in a "guarding stance" or "guarding posture" or some such nonsense to "earn" a closely guarded count. The classic example has the ball handler standing near the division line, holding the ball. The defender come out within six feet to get a count. But both the ball handler and the guard are just standing there. Some referees will not give the defender a count.

The point of the case is that the defender can just stand there and get a count. All that is required is for the guard to have "assumed a guarding position". This guarding position is a place on the floor in the opponent's path, and within six feet. It is not, as some believe, a particular stance. Not even the "stance" required to attain LGP.

The phrase "both feet on the court, facing the opponent" in the ruling is obviously tripping you up. I can see why. If you're looking to derive the definition of closely guarded, it surely reads like those are requirements. But don't be mislead. This is not a case about the definition of guarding or LGP. It is a case about whether you can just stand there with "both feet on the court, facing the opponent" and get a count.

The answer is yes. You can just stand there with "both feet on the court, facing the opponent" and get a count.

But it's not the only way to get a count.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

ILMalti,

Your argument seems to hinge on a single case

....

But it's not the only way to get a count.

Forget the $0.04 I mentioned earlier, that was worth far more...maybe even an entire buck.

[ILMalti]

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules
POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Closely guarded. Well-officiated closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following four areas are to be emphasized:
A. When to start. A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.
A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her front court. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before violating.
B. When to stop. A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet. The count

http://www.laparks.org/dos/sports/yo...tsofemph05.pdf
More sites are coming

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules
POINTS OF EMPHASIS

A. When to start. A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.

More sites are coming

Well I guess you are "right" even though neither the casebook nor rulebook actually directly support that ruling.

Recent editions of the rules committee have been notorious about making rulings/interpretations that have no actual basis in the rulebook (i.e., backcourt situation from a couple seasons ago). Call it an editorial change if they must, but the wording for the closely guarded rule should, if that is the desired interpretation, say that LGP is required....not just that the player be guarding and within 6'. One shouldn't have to dig up 5 year old POE's to find it.

[ILMalti]

Thank you Cameron,

I will endeavour to find what rules (although I still believe the situation we talked about so much) and post them in a very different thread.


You also note it is a 2009-10 NFHS POE,,, Not so old ... I had to start somewhere .

Can I have the $1 that you offered to back_in_the_saddle ? (my silly sense of humour).

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Thank you Cameron,

I will endeavour to find what rules (although I still believe the situation we talked about so much) and post them in a very different thread.


You also note it is a 2009-10 NFHS POE,,, Not so old ... I had to start somewhere .

Can I have the $1 that you offered to back_in_the_saddle ? (my silly sense of humour).

Not so fast there, my friend. Unfortunately this new POE only says "a legal guarding position" which is ambiguous as to whether they mean a legally obtained position in the opponent's path, which is specifically required by 4-23-1 for guarding, or whether it refers to LGP, which 4-23-2,3 call "initial legal guarding position".

It would be helpful if the NFHS would be a little more precise in their wording.

But the real issue is this...No, you cannot have the $1. It's already spent!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not so fast there, my friend. Unfortunately this new POE only says "a legal guarding position" which is ambiguous as to whether they mean a legally obtained position in the opponent's path, which is specifically required by 4-23-1 for guarding, or whether it refers to LGP, which 4-23-2,3 call "initial legal guarding position".

It would be helpful if the NFHS would be a little more precise in their wording.

But the real issue is this...No, you cannot have the $1. It's already spent!

Crappy Beer night?

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not so fast there, my friend. Unfortunately this new POE only says "a legal guarding position" which is ambiguous as to whether they mean a legally obtained position in the opponent's path, which is specifically required by 4-23-1 for guarding, or whether it refers to LGP, which 4-23-2,3 call "initial legal guarding position".

It would be helpful if the NFHS would be a little more precise in their wording.

But the real issue is this...No, you cannot have the $1. It's already spent!

2. CLOSELY GUARDED. Well-officiated, closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely-guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following areas are to be emphasized:
A. Rule basics. A closely-guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team’s frontcourt, is guarded by an opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball; the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position. A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her frontcourt. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before

I am amazed that you can argue with this especially when the POE heading is "CLOSELY Guarded: sub title Rule BASIC"

I will blame it on the $1 beer

[ILMalti]

Here it is Finaly we can put this topic to rest
http://www.nfhs.org/core/contentmana...f_Emphasis.pdf
I cannot include all the text too long so go to the nfhs site above if you want to read further I assume we cannot go against what the NFHS says can we?

I was going to include all the POE but it is too long for the forum, so I included the link and the important stuff in green and the very very important stuff in red.

I thus rest my case. I do not know how clearer you need this to be. Please only start a CG count as described. It is the rule.

I also highlighted stuff in blue since it applies to comments in this thread

NFHS BASKETBALL
2009-10 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. TRAVELING. ....
2. CLOSELY GUARDED. Well-officiated, closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely-guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following areas are to be emphasized:
A. Rule basics. A closely-guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team’s frontcourt, is guarded by an opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball; the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position. A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her frontcourt. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before violating.
B. Measuring 6 feet. Officials must define and have a clear image of the 6-foot guarding distance necessary. Too frequently, officials require the defensive player to be within 3 to 4 feet prior to the count being initiated. Good visual examples of this distance can be found on the court as: the distance between the free-throw line and the top of the semi-circle; from the division line to the
jump circle; two adjacent marked lane spaces. Failure to properly judge the 6-foot distance and require the defender to be within 3 or 4 feet of the dribbler before beginning the count puts the defensive player in an unfair position.
C. Ending the count. A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within 6 feet. The count also stops when a closely guarded player: completes a dribble anywhere in the team’s own frontcourt; starts a dribble in the team’s own frontcourt and ends it anywhere in the frontcourt (a new five-second count will start if the player holds the ball); loses possession of the ball for any reason in the team’s own frontcourt; or has his or her dribble interrupted. If a closely-guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defensive player, the count has ended.
D. Multiple defenders. The count should continue even if there is a defensive switch, provided the 6-foot distance is maintained. There is no requirement for the defensive player to remain the same during the count as long as the offensive player is closely guarded throughout.
E. Counting mechanics. The official begins a visible count when the 6-foot distance is established and must switch arms when going directly from one counting situation to another.
3. THREE-SECONDS. ....

4. BLOCK/CHARGE....