Nightmare dillema

[Texas Aggie]

I am also scared for the referee and organization as they might be sued.

By whom and for what? Simply because there is a fight and/or injuries doesn't mean the officials are liable. How about the one that caused the harm in the first place?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

By whom and for what? Simply because there is a fight and/or injuries doesn't mean the officials are liable. How about the one that caused the harm in the first place?

Agreed. Looks to me like Earl Strom here is looking for some sort of justification to initiate a lawsuit himself.

If I were in Vegas, I'd bet that his niece was the player who got the ride in the ambulance.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MRofficial

So I was in watching a basketball game of a niece as she was playing an AAU game. The girls are in high school and are very competitive. They were playing a game when I the game was slowly getting out of hand. Having been a basketball official in the high school level, and now doing work in the CACC conference, I have a certain appreication for younger referee's.

Be that as it may, the referee's needed to improve alot, they were well over their heads.

1. In the winding moments of the game before my niece, team A scored a wild 3pt to bring their deficeit down to 2 with 22 seconds left. Coach of Team A calls timeout, and during the excitment and confusion NEITHER referee counts the number of players substituting for Team A. There were 6 players on the court from Team A, 6 players in bright purple pressing the team that is only up by 2. In fact, the clock runs for 12 seconds while Team A is pressing full court, until a foul is called in the front court and the 6th girl on Team A somehow disappears onto the bench. This should have been the first clue for me, but everyone makes mistakes.

2. The same two referee's my neiece's game and I'm thinking well, it was very exciting and counting players could be overlooked. As the game goes, there were NO technicals called, when obviously there were at least 2 incidents of players confronting each other face to face, and 1 where a player was pushed to the ground behind the trail offical and the player on the ground kicked the player who was running over her. As the second half began, the game was even more volatile. Team A was up by a large margin and the game was getting even more tense as Team B was making a run. Than, another altercation, where two players are in each other's face. The referee finally walks over to the coachs and simply says they need to control their players, once again, no technicals and the game is still being called very loose. I would have personally given both coaches tech's for agruing throuhgout the game and demeaning the officials. Long story short, nighmare scenario occurs. One girls from Team A faces off with a girl from Team B. Referee did not get between them, they watched and than one girl striked the other girl, causing both the bleachers and benches to clear out. Police and ambulances were on site and the game was called.

MY DILLEMA
WHAT TO DO! I do not believe that either of these officials should referee again. I am also scared for the referee and organization as they might be sued. Any suggestions or comments? I think that this board has the general liability insurance, and they might need it!

Originally Posted by MRofficial

WOW, looks like there is alot of whislting going on!

I admitt I had to learn too, I've missed calls and made bad ones as well, and you are right, I did learn from them. I also agree that this AAU thing has gotten out of hand. This job we call offciating is not a full time position, I totally agree that if people expect much they must be given much.

Fortunately I love the game and have passionately pursued to get better and at my level I am well compenstated, however I think that we all agree that there are those whom we have either seen or worked with as partners who you hope and wish you don't get again.

Now, it is clearly the role of the assigner to do the best of balancing the referee, but I'm sure it hasn't changed much from my days of doing summer ball, where the best is not necessarily assigned for various games due to the pay or scheduling conflicts. Having said that these two particular referee's will see a lawsuit from what I have heard, and this just brings a new dimension for us. Coaches should coach, but if they don't referee's should ref and keep the safety of the athletes at the forefront. I just believe that seeing the younger referee's, they are seldom prepared and have alot of OJT, which is fine, but I hope we all agree that there are several referee's who do not have what it takes to ref, not all who want to ref can nor should be referees.

I think that you should write a letter to the league expressing your concerns. Your writing skills are sure to get their attention.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by grunewar

8 minutes megillah? Are you kidding?

Thanks to the prompting of this thread, I'm listening to the 17 minute version now.....

......"Don't you know I'll always be true?"

Sorry, I am the victim of listening toooo long and toooo LOUD to that tune to have any accurate recollection of the song's duration.
Sounds like a fine thing to be doing on a gloomy 'spring' day.

L8R

[rlarry]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that you should write a letter to the league expressing your concerns. Your writing skills are sure to get their attention.

That was funny

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Yes sir, I'll buy that.

"If you can't see it, it wasn't meant for you to see,
If you wasn't born with it, it wasn't meant for you to be it" - DMX

Ha! I am willing to bet this is the first time DMX has been quoted on this board.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that you should write a letter to the league expressing your concerns. Your writing skills are sure to get their attention.

Classicly understanded, NV.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Classicly understanded, NV.

Don't you really mean 'classically understated'?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Temp grammar and spelling nerd

[tomegun]

This happened in Vegas? Now I'm wondering who the OP is, what games these were and who the young officials are.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Don't you really mean 'classically understated'?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Temp grammar and spelling nerd

Well played, coach.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

This happened in Vegas? Now I'm wondering who the OP is, what games these were and who the young officials are.

I don't see anything by the OP about the games being in Vegas. I would think that they took place on the Atlantic coast as that is where the CACC is located.

The only mention that I see in the thread to Vegas came from Snaqs and he only brought it up in reference to betting.

[MRofficial]

First, if you believe that everyone who passes their 100 questions "yes and no" rules exam should be able to become a referee, that is your own opinion, as I was stating mine. Although I have the fortune of working with great crews, I give even more credit to those who do it for far less monetary compensation and far too much parent officiating. Having said that I still stand by my statement that not all people who want to referee should.

First thing I was taught back in my provisional years was to manage the game. If you did all you can to protect the players by using all the tools at your disposal such as, technical's/ejection/"tightening" the calls/warning coaches of calling the game, than you are right, you have done all you can! But when you do not utilize these tools and have coaches cursing at the top of their lungs during the game, I question if these referee's performed their jobs. I am all for OJT, but in this crazy world of AAU basketball and competitive college recruiting which we are mere victims of, we need to be aware of how to control games. After all seeing the news and various events unfold in basketball, we should acknowledge that our roles as officials are changing to encompass much more than mere 'advantage / disadvantage' calls.

As for suggestions of my 'fishing' for a lawsuit, I can only say that if I wanted to sue, it would have already been done. I have written a letter to send to the referee's board of executives along with a phone call to the assigner, but I wanted to see what everyone thought would be the appropriate measure.

Finally, on the more legal realm, all boards have insurance policies which protect you from lawsuits, and if you are unaware of your legal rights, pick up "Sports officiating:A Legal Guide" Myself and many of my colleagues have read this book, particularly in this age of camera's and televised games.
In addition if you are curious there is case law that pertains to 'negligence' of referee's which fall in favor of most referee's:

Kennel vs. Carson City School District (1990): High school basketball player attacked by opponent sued school district alleging that referees negligently failed to protect player. School district not liable for referees’ conduct. (Guess who was sued after this suit!)

However, the referee was sued. In case you haven't guessed, yes I am a lawyer, but not a litigator, so I'm more on the bean-counting aka corporate side. Having said that, I am very fortunate that my niece was not involved, she rides the bench, but parents have been asking me what they should do and my line has been to talk to the board and forgo the legal procedure of suing for 'Negligence.'

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MRofficial

First, if you believe that everyone who passes their 100 questions "yes and no" rules exam should be able to become a referee, that is your own opinion, as I was stating mine.

Maybe I missed it, but could you point me to where someone said this?

Originally Posted by MRofficial

Although I have the fortune of working with great crews, I give even more credit to those who do it for far less monetary compensation and far too much parent officiating. Having said that I still stand by my statement that not all people who want to referee should.

Well played Mr. Big Time. Next time, don't use your first post to disparage AAU officials, you might have credibility.

Originally Posted by MRofficial

First thing I was taught back in my provisional years was to manage the game. If you did all you can to protect the players by using all the tools at your disposal such as, technical's/ejection/"tightening" the calls/warning coaches of calling the game, than you are right, you have done all you can! But when you do not utilize these tools and have coaches cursing at the top of their lungs during the game, I question if these referee's performed their jobs. I am all for OJT, but in this crazy world of AAU basketball and competitive college recruiting which we are mere victims of, we need to be aware of how to control games. After all seeing the news and various events unfold in basketball, we should acknowledge that our roles as officials are changing to encompass much more than mere 'advantage / disadvantage' calls.

Again, these are summer AAU officials, likely very new. Games are going to get out of hand. Show me where they could have done something that definitively would have stopped the fight an injury.

Originally Posted by MRofficial

As for suggestions of my 'fishing' for a lawsuit, I can only say that if I wanted to sue, it would have already been done. I have written a letter to send to the referee's board of executives along with a phone call to the assigner, but I wanted to see what everyone thought would be the appropriate measure.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by MRofficial

Finally, on the more legal realm, all boards have insurance policies which protect you from lawsuits, and if you are unaware of your legal rights, pick up "Sports officiating:A Legal Guide" Myself and many of my colleagues have read this book, particularly in this age of camera's and televised games.

Frankly I don't believe you're a lawyer. As Nevadaref pointed out, your writing skills are horrible, at least as displayed here. Your grammar above is not indicative of someone with a law degree.

Originally Posted by MRofficial

In addition if you are curious there is case law that pertains to 'negligence' of referee's which fall in favor of most referee's:

Kennel vs. Carson City School District (1990): High school basketball player attacked by opponent sued school district alleging that referees negligently failed to protect player. School district not liable for referees’ conduct. (Guess who was sued after this suit!)

Gosh, I was able to google this lawsuit, but it says nothing about the actual suit against the official. And judging by the website I think you got this from, all other claims against officials that are listed were dismissed. So again, what do you think the officials failed to do that makes them potentially legally liable for the injuries?

Originally Posted by MRofficial

However, the referee was sued. In case you haven't guessed, yes I am a lawyer, but not a litigator, so I'm more on the bean-counting aka corporate side. Having said that, I am very fortunate that my niece was not involved, she rides the bench, but parents have been asking me what they should do and my line has been to talk to the board and forgo the legal procedure of suing for 'Negligence.'

Again, I really don't think you're a lawyer.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would leave this up to your venue. If you're in a rural school in the middle of Oklahoma, something by Toby Keith might be appropriate.

If you're in Wisconsin, maybe some polka.

Zing! Boom! Tarrarel!

Would they whistle John Denver in Colorado?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Zing! Boom! Tarrarel!

Would they whistle John Denver in Colorado?

Thanks, Rich, now I have that stupid song in my head.

West Virginia can have him.