What Should We Have Done??

[ss17]

Need a little help with a situation that I went through recently:

During a high level AAU game (great tournament, BV division), we had a situation that I am almost certain we did not get correct.

I am the L when a shot from A1 goes up. As I am watching the post play, I notice that B2 shoves A1 to the ground, so as the ball is in the air, me and the C both blow our whistles. After the play was over, I notice the T with his hand in the air too, and I get confused. It turns out he had a foul on B1 during the jump shot (late whistle).

After gathering, the C, who was by far the most experienced out of the group (I am only in my second year) decided to wave off the foul by B2 and simply award A1 with two foul shots. The coach of A was upset that we did not call both fouls (judging by a pre game talk I had with him, it appeared that he was a referee himself, not certain though).

Anyway, what should the correct call have been? I can't imagine that we got it right, but I can't think off the top of my head what we should have called. The only thing I can possibly think of would be a false multiple foul, but I can't remember if that fits the definition, and I don't have my rule book in front of me (NFHS rules, FYI).

If we did screw it up, what should the result have been?? Two shots with lane cleared than ball taken out on the endline??

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ss17

Need a little help with a situation that I went through recently:

During a high level AAU game (great tournament, BV division), we had a situation that I am almost certain we did not get correct.

I am the L when a shot from A1 goes up. As I am watching the post play, I notice that B2 shoves A1 to the ground, so as the ball is in the air, me and the C both blow our whistles. After the play was over, I notice the T with his hand in the air too, and I get confused. It turns out he had a foul on B1 during the jump shot (late whistle).

After gathering, the C, who was by far the most experienced out of the group (I am only in my second year) decided to wave off the foul by B2 and simply award A1 with two foul shots. The coach of A was upset that we did not call both fouls (judging by a pre game talk I had with him, it appeared that he was a referee himself, not certain though).

Anyway, what should the correct call have been? I can't imagine that we got it right, but I can't think off the top of my head what we should have called. The only thing I can possibly think of would be a false multiple foul, but I can't remember if that fits the definition, and I don't have my rule book in front of me (NFHS rules, FYI).

If we did screw it up, what should the result have been?? Two shots with lane cleared than ball taken out on the endline??

ss17:

If B2's foul occured at the same time as B1's foul, then by definition (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's), you had a multiple foul, not a false multiple foul in your situation. I am assuming that B1's foul was from the C's side of the court, while B2's foul was from the T's side of the court and behind (from the L's view) of A1; therefore, the T held his foul signal but waited to see what you and the C had, and evidently was satisfied that 1) the two of you had a foul being committed against A1 and 2) you both agreed on the same player who committed the foul. Since the T only signaled a foul but did not signal who the foul was against, I do not see the reason for your conference. But I think you and your teammates handled well and did the correct thing.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Good night all.

[Adam]

I'm confused, did B1 and B2 both foul A1, or is there an A2 involved somehow?
If they both fouled the same player, go with one and move on.
If there are two separate incidents (B1 fouls shooting A1 and B2 fouls reboundingg A2), then you have to figure out which happened first.
Whichever happened first is the one you go with. The coach may be right, by rule, if the first foul was B1 fouling the shooter. The ball is still live on this, but given that there will be no rebound, the advantage disappears and the 2nd foul can easily be ignored.

If, on the other hand, the shooting foul is first but B2's foul is too hard to ignore; go ahead and call them both. False multiple, penalized in the order they happened. Two free throws for the shooter, and the ball OOB for the team A (or bonus free throws for A2).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is still live on this, but given that there will be no rebound, the advantage disappears and the 2nd foul can easily be ignored.

Good point! The situation does not fall into the usual "ignore unless intentional or flagrant" because the ball is still live. But in this case we have a different reason to "ignore unless intentional or flagrant," since there will be no rebound and hence a minor foul confers no advantage.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If, on the other hand, the shooting foul is first but B2's foul is too hard to ignore; go ahead and call them both. False multiple, penalized in the order they happened. Two free throws for the shooter with the lane cleared, and the ball OOB for the team A (or bonus free throws for A2).

Fixed it for ya.

I'm curious: you'd call a common foul here? If it's too hard to ignore, won't it be intentional or flagrant?

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm curious: you'd call a common foul here? If it's too hard to ignore, won't it be intentional or flagrant?

The ball isn't dead if the try is still in flight or is unsuccessful.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

The ball isn't dead if the try is still in flight or is unsuccessful.

Not in question.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm curious: you'd call a common foul here? If it's too hard to ignore, won't it be intentional or flagrant?

It doesn't have to be intentional or flagrant, but the displacement would have to be significant, IMO. There's middle ground there, I think, allowing for a common foul.

[ss17]

Thanks for the response everyone. Just to clarify...


** B1 fouled A1 on a shot attempt, while B2 fouled A2 attempting to gain position down low

** The shooting foul was committed on our side, just inside the three point line, while the post foul was committed just inside the paint on the C side

** The ball was still live during the time of the foul because the try was still in question, however it was very difficult to ignore because A2 was actually knocked down by B2 (nothing more than a physical play)

[Adam]

Thanks for clarifying. Knocking A2 down in this case might mean you should call it and it might not. It really depends on how hard the bump or push was.

Think of it this way, take away the shooting foul and assume A1 gets his shot off clean and it goes in. If you think B2's foul would need to be called in that case, you should call it here. Cleaning up rough play sometimes means calling something out of the ordinary (like double fouls), and a false multiple here isn't a bad choice.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ss17

Need a little help with a situation that I went through recently:

During a high level AAU game (great tournament, BV division), we had a situation that I am almost certain we did not get correct.

I am the L when a shot from A1 goes up. As I am watching the post play, I notice that B2 shoves A1 to the ground, so as the ball is in the air, me and the C both blow our whistles. After the play was over, I notice the T with his hand in the air too, and I get confused. It turns out he had a foul on B1 during the jump shot (late whistle).

After gathering, the C, who was by far the most experienced out of the group (I am only in my second year) decided to wave off the foul by B2 and simply award A1 with two foul shots. The coach of A was upset that we did not call both fouls (judging by a pre game talk I had with him, it appeared that he was a referee himself, not certain though).

Anyway, what should the correct call have been? I can't imagine that we got it right, but I can't think off the top of my head what we should have called. The only thing I can possibly think of would be a false multiple foul, but I can't remember if that fits the definition, and I don't have my rule book in front of me (NFHS rules, FYI).

If we did screw it up, what should the result have been?? Two shots with lane cleared than ball taken out on the endline??

Originally Posted by ss17

Thanks for the response everyone. Just to clarify...


** B1 fouled A1 on a shot attempt, while B2 fouled A2 attempting to gain position down low

** The shooting foul was committed on our side, just inside the three point line, while the post foul was committed just inside the paint on the C side

** The ball was still live during the time of the foul because the try was still in question, however it was very difficult to ignore because A2 was actually knocked down by B2 (nothing more than a physical play)

You are only in your 2nd year so take this as a learning experience. You have learned a valuable lesson very early. There is no substitute for knowing the rules.

These are the plays that can be handled by officials who are well-versed in the rules, but really get the lazy guys who don't study the book and just call the obvious in a great deal of trouble. You will have one of these goofy plays every few years. You can really distinguish yourself by handling them properly. People rarely remember the normal plays, but will certainly take notice when the wild and wacky happens. Therefore, they will also remember what you did.

What really bothers me about this incident is what your more experienced partner did. You called a legitimate foul against B2 for pushing an opponent during a live ball while attempting to get rebounding position. Your partner was completely wrong to say that that foul could be nullified.
He has no right whatsoever to change your calls.

RULE 2, SECTION 6 OFFICIALS’ AUTHORITY
No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the
other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If there are two separate incidents (B1 fouls shooting A1 and B2 fouls rebounding A2), then you have to figure out which happened first.
Whichever happened first is the one you go with. The coach may be right, by rule, if the first foul was B1 fouling the shooter. The ball is still live on this, but given that there will be no rebound, the advantage disappears and the 2nd foul can easily be ignored.

If, on the other hand, the shooting foul is first but B2's foul is too hard to ignore; go ahead and call them both. False multiple, penalized in the order they happened. Two free throws for the shooter, and the ball OOB for the team A (or bonus free throws for A2).

What Snaqs has written is mostly correct, but I have a couple of different thoughts on some points.

First, in this particular situation when both fouls occur AFTER A1 has begun the act of shooting BOTH fouls MUST be penalized because they both occurred during a live ball, and there is NO rule that permits one of them to be ignored.

It does still matter in which order the fouls were committed because the penalties must be administered in that same order. That is what is done on a false multiple or false double foul.

a. The foul on A1 occurs first. -- Penalty administration: Count the goal if successful and award one FT with the lane cleared or awarded two or three FTs with the lane cleared if the try was an unsuccessful two or three point attempt. Now the penalty for the foul by B2 is assessed. (1) If team A is in the bonus then A2 is awarded either a 1-and-1 or 2FTs WITH THE PLAYERS OCCUPYING the lanes spaces and play continues as normal from the result of the FTs. (2) If team A is not yet in the bonus, then it will receive a throw-in from the nearest OOB spot to the foul by B2.

b. The foul on A2 occurs first. -- Penalty administration: (1) If team A is in the bonus, then award A2 either 1-and-1 or 2FTs with the lane cleared. Now deal with the foul by B1 as if the foul by B2 didn't occur. Meaning count or don't count the basket as appropriate and award the proper number of FTs as normal.
(2) If team A is not in the bonus, then penalty of awarding a throw-in for the first foul gets skipped. The personal foul is still charged to the offending individual. One needs to think of this situation in the same manner as a foul being committed which results in a throw-in, but then another foul is committed by the same team after the ball becomes live yet before the throw-in ends. The non-offending team wouldn't now get two throw-ins, right? You would simply forget about the first throw-in and move to the penalty for the 2nd foul, which may be bonus FTs or just another throw-in. So that is what needs to be done here. After charging a personal foul to B2, forget about it and handle the foul by B1 on A1 as normal. So line 'em up and shoot the proper number of FTs for the foul during the try.

I'm not an advocate of only calling fouls that are "too hard to ignore." IMO knocking an opposing player to the ground is an illegal action that should not be ignored simply because there won't be a rebound. If you blew the whistle when observing the play, then you adjudged that the contact was severe enough to warrant a foul. So penalize it. Just do so properly according to the rules.

So hit those books!

[Indianaref]

Is B1 or B2 a star player?