Gems from Camps this week

[Larks]

Worked the Northern KY University and the Mt. St. Joeseph's boys camps this week....here a couple gems....how about you....any pearls of wisdom from camps this summer?

Coach: "You can't call illegal screen, they arent calling handchecks at the other end!"

Me: Ok, guys, we'll ref and you play
Player (loudly): when you gonna start reffin then"
Me: Right now...WHACK

Asst. Coach to my P: They dont make that call in the GCL....You'll never ref in the GCL (my partner was a seasoned GCL ref...the coach was a new assistant running the team for camp...he gave him the benefit of the doubt and let him stick around)

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Larks
Me: Ok, guys, we'll ref and you play
Player (loudly): when you gonna start reffin then"
Me: Right now...WHACK

Larks, this exchange just sounds like you provoked the situation. Telling guys that they haven't been playing seems insulting. I don't know what transpired before your comment, but I think the T could have been avoided by simply keeping quiet. We all do games where the quality of play is poor, but we can't tell the players they stink. And that's what you did -- or at least, that's how it was perceived. Rule of thumb: the less said, the better.

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Larks, this exchange just sounds like you provoked the situation. Telling guys that they haven't been playing seems insulting. I don't know what transpired before your comment, but I think the T could have been avoided by simply keeping quiet. We all do games where the quality of play is poor, but we can't tell the players they stink. And that's what you did -- or at least, that's how it was perceived. Rule of thumb: the less said, the better.

Chuck

I'm not sure this comment is meant as an insult, but I do
hope Larks has taken it out of his list of quick one-liners.
The response he got is exactly what he deserved
I agree that the T was not deserved, if a player/coach
one-ups your wise*ss remark ya kinda have to smile &
take it, IMO, which is why you have to be careful with the
stock wise*ss remarks. But we go to camps to put ourselves
in new and exciting situations & learn from them!

[Larks]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Larks, this exchange just sounds like you provoked the situation. Telling guys that they haven't been playing seems insulting. I don't know what transpired before your comment, but I think the T could have been avoided by simply keeping quiet. We all do games where the quality of play is poor, but we can't tell the players they stink. And that's what you did -- or at least, that's how it was perceived. Rule of thumb: the less said, the better.

Chuck

Agreed Chuck. Usually I do allow give and take. Someone once told me that we should run below the water so to speak and I try to do that.

This exchange came after a lot of give and take and we finally had to start saying...look guys....less talk....more play. This game was full of extra bumps and shoves, an intention foul etc. You know the kind.

We also had the officials instructor brought in for the camp hammering us all day about game management especially player talk and extra curriculars.

When you say the words...."ok guys thats it" and you get more....do you take more? I submit no because its not going to improve on its own.

Thanks for the feedback. I am just moving up the ladder so I listen to all the feedback I can get. In this case, when you add all the elements together, I felt good about the T because I felt that things werent going to get any better.

Larks

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Larks, this exchange just sounds like you provoked the situation. Telling guys that they haven't been playing seems insulting. I don't know what transpired before your comment, but I think the T could have been avoided by simply keeping quiet. We all do games where the quality of play is poor, but we can't tell the players they stink. And that's what you did -- or at least, that's how it was perceived. Rule of thumb: the less said, the better.

I disagree. How is "Ok guys, we'll ref and you play" or "Guys, play ball and let us call the game," telling the players that they haven't been playing or that they stink? I don't see the correlation.

Now, I do agree that those words are an ultimatum. But I don't see where it's telling the players they stink.

[Larks]

Thats right...By no means did the "We'll ref, you play" insinuate they stink. Only that they were talking to us too much about calls in a negative manner.

I am certainly smart enough to stay away from commenting about the quality of play.

Larks

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks

Agreed Chuck. Usually I do allow give and take. Someone once told me that we should run below the water so to speak and I try to do that.

This exchange came after a lot of give and take and we finally had to start saying...look guys....less talk....more play. This game was full of extra bumps and shoves, an intention foul etc. You know the kind.

We also had the officials instructor brought in for the camp hammering us all day about game management especially player talk and extra curriculars.

When you say the words...."ok guys thats it" and you get more....do you take more? I submit no because its not going to improve on its own.

Thanks for the feedback. I am just moving up the ladder so I listen to all the feedback I can get. In this case, when you add all the elements together, I felt good about the T because I felt that things werent going to get any better.

Larks

Think about this: did it make the game better? Did the
whining & moaning stop? Did it clean up the contact?
Or was it too late in the game to really make a difference?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I disagree. How is "Ok guys, we'll ref and you play" or "Guys, play ball and let us call the game," telling the players that they haven't been playing or that they stink?

You know what? I owe a big fat apology. I read it too fast and thought it said "we'll ref when you play". That's why I said Larks provoked it. Totally my bad.

I still subscribe to "the less said, the better" tho.

Chuck

[zebraman]

Dan-ref,

I'm interested in how you would manage a situation like that. If both teams are whining more than playing, what would you do or say to make it stop?

Thanks,

Z

[Larks]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Think about this: did it make the game better? Did the
whining & moaning stop? Did it clean up the contact?
Or was it too late in the game to really make a difference?
[/B][/QUOTE]

To be honest...yeah, the talkie talkie went way down after the T. Was the game better? Was there less contact?...I think so. All I can say is before the T....a lot to look at and too much to hear. After the T things seemed a lot smoother.

A wise official once told me...when the talking starts, it rarely gets any better so you may as well deal with it earlier.

Larks

[BktBallRef]

I don't know as "The less said, the better" is a good rule of thumb for everyone. Yes, it's good for less experienced officials. But as we mature, we should be able to diffuse situations by talking to players and coaches. Also, how you say it is at least as important as how you say it. "Gentlemen, you're focusing too much on the officiating. Play your game, and let us make the calls." "Coach, I'll clean that up but I need you to focus on your team. Let us do our job."

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by zebraman
Dan-ref,

I'm interested in how you would manage a situation like that. If both teams are whining more than playing, what would you do or say to make it stop?

Thanks,

Z

I like to do it this way:

1. Ignore the whining. This will work if the players are
serious about the game & they realize they are getting
absolutely no response. Don't even acknowledge their existence. If there are genuine questions about a call
then I answer it completely: "I called/nocalled it because
I saw that you...blah blah...if you would have done it this
way...blah blah I would have given you the call." If you
think you missed it say so. If you "coach" a player like
this make sure you reward them for listening to you.

2. Subtle warning. "The more you complian the more I'll be
watching you. I can always find *something* to call,
right?" Smile & wink. This usually gets us on the same
page unless we're dealing with a genuine assh*le, then I'll
just tell them to stop it or they'll find themselves with 3 fouls very quickly. Sometimes flattery gets to them: "I
know a player like you doesn't have to lower themselves
like this, you're just too good for this kid stuff". This
is almost guaranteed to work on 13/14/15 yr old boys.
BTW, these comments are always one-on-one, in a soft tone.

3. During a dead ball following a call loudly announce that
there will be no more comments on the refereeing. Period.
You are making a big mistake if this is step 1, because
you've just told everyone you have a red @ss.

4. T the first guy who opens his mouth.

Kind of the same for coaches, ignore, work with, then T.
Assistants are told to sit down & keep quiet.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Jun 24th, 2002 at 10:54 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I don't know as "The less said, the better" is a good rule of thumb for everyone. Yes, it's good for less experienced officials. But as we mature, we should be able to diffuse situations by talking to players and coaches. Also, how you say it is at least as important as how you say it. "Gentlemen, you're focusing too much on the officiating. Play your game, and let us make the calls." "Coach, I'll clean that up but I need you to focus on your team. Let us do our job."

Yep, I like those too.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
But as we mature, we should be able to diffuse situations by talking to players and coaches.

Absolutely true, Tony, and I feel like this is the area in which I've made the greatest strides in my game over the last 3 seasons. But even in giving calm, reasoned explanations, my opinion is that you keep the exchange as brief as possible. Trying to explain too much is no good, b/c the coach doesn't really care that much. Trying to argue a point is no good, b/c it just intensifies a situation. Say what you absolutely need to in order to answer the question and then get outta Dodge. Again, just my opinion.

Also, how you say it is at least as important as how you say it.

I simply could not agree more!!

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

... But even in giving calm, reasoned explanations, my opinion is that you keep the exchange as brief as possible. Trying to explain too much is no good, b/c the coach doesn't really care that much. Trying to argue a point is no good, b/c it just intensifies a situation. Say what you absolutely need to in order to answer the question and then get outta Dodge. Again, just my opinion.

Chuck

Absolutely agree. The best conversations are sometimes between the coach & T (or C), when you really don't have
much time for more than a quick nod, grunt, and "I'll look
for it" or "You're wrong coach" before you run down the
court. Coaches do not want to hear your long-winded
explanations, and if you give them one they will almost
always twist it to their advantage. But they do want to be
listened to.