"Wisconsin Refs" - 3 Person Question

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

I'll agree first round deserves higher quality than regular season; but I disagree that you need the same quality official on a first round playoff game as you get in the finals. Even with 2-person, you're not getting that. You just can't.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Gotcha - I agree. I don't agree with Snagwells though - what makes a first round game any less important than a final? One and done baby! 1st round games deserve the same quality as finals IMHO

In a state where everyone gets in, you can target certain games. A few years ago I had 18-2 against 2-18 and the game was a 40-point spread at the half. This was 1 against 16 in a sectional, I think.

Of course, I believe I worked a boys game about 4 years ago where the team got its first win (0-20 up till then) in the first round. And I've had two first round boys games that came right down to the last shot. I'll never forget the one where I had my hand up as the trail on a 3 at the buzzer (2 point game) and watched as the ball rattled out. I blew my whistle and everyone (including us) stood for a second or two to absorb what had just happened.

I love it when I get a first round game where the teams are close seeds playing one another. Last year, I had a boys 8/9 matchup that was outstanding and the visiting team pulled it out at the wire.

[WIRef]

I think the question above was whether we have enough quality officials to do 3-person, or whether we have enough quality 3-person officials to do the tournament games? IMO, right now there are not enough quality 3-person officials to handle the first round sub-regional games all on one night. Splitting them over two nights would help. But weather in Wisconsin is very unpredictable, and it would be a scheduling nightmare trying to get games in before the next round comes. Not sure of the best way to handle the 3-person dilemma, but schools are really fighting it right now, due to budget problems. Also, I think we as officials in general can take some blame, because, in some instances, we have not been able to show that 3-person crews call that much better of a game than 2-person crews. That comes from the inexperience of some, along with having to work with officials you have not worked with before. I know the theory is that in 3-person you should be able to work with any other official. But the inexperience really shows for those that do mostly 3-person games. Just my thoughts.

[WIRef]

"But the inexperience really shows for those that do mostly 3-person games."

Sorry, this should have read 2-person games!!

[BillyMac]

95% of regular season games, here in the Land of Steady Habits, are worked by two officials. Three person games don't kick in until the state quarterfinals. Our local board had it's first, ever, three man clinic in December, 2008. This in the state with one of the highest per capita incomes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by WIRef

I think the question above was whether we have enough quality officials to do 3-person, or whether we have enough quality 3-person officials to do the tournament games? IMO, right now there are not enough quality 3-person officials to handle the first round sub-regional games all on one night. Splitting them over two nights would help. But weather in Wisconsin is very unpredictable, and it would be a scheduling nightmare trying to get games in before the next round comes. Not sure of the best way to handle the 3-person dilemma, but schools are really fighting it right now, due to budget problems.

I think that is a lame excuse. This season will be the 11th since 1997 that the state just south of you has used 3 Person crews for all post season games. Our state made a commitment to using 3 officials and they did everything to train officials to the system. Of course there was an adjustment period for everyone, but it was not about quality of officials, it was about training and only training. You will never improve officiating by hoping that people get good enough. You have to make a commitment to make those better through training in camps or literature. In this state every team makes the playoffs and the post season is run in 4 different tournaments. We have over 5000 basketball officials but for the Regional Finals each level needs 192 officials to work the Championship. They use more in for other Regional games, but a solid number of officials to cover the post season.

Originally Posted by WIRef

Also, I think we as officials in general can take some blame, because, in some instances, we have not been able to show that 3-person crews call that much better of a game than 2-person crews. That comes from the inexperience of some, along with having to work with officials you have not worked with before. I know the theory is that in 3-person you should be able to work with any other official. But the inexperience really shows for those that do mostly 3-person games. Just my thoughts.

You just do not work games in the system and all of a sudden becomes an expert. You have to be given opportunities to work games in the system and that requires either camp opportunities or games during the regular season. I have been working 3 Person my entire career in come capacity and it takes a few years to learn. The training is so good here that there are things we do not even need to discuss like we once did several years ago. I credit this all to the state's commitment to the system and insisting on training the masses to learn the system. The IHSA did not just sit back and expect the system to be used and not put programs in to give officials an opportunity to learn in many cases. Now working 3 Person is like riding a bike. Of course there are bad officials, but it is not because of the use of 3 officials.

Peace

[williebfree]

Originally Posted by mick

Something like that.
Why are you laughing at me?

NOT laughing... I think I was going for a smile and got a laugh. Sorry.

[BearBoy]

You mean WISCONSIN doesn't have enough "good" officials to ref 3-person? What a sack of crap - How do they train officials? Has there been any proactivity by the state association? No college experienced officials to help advocate for 3-person at HS varsity level during the season. Has WIAA "dropped the ball" on this issue? Too bad for the kids!

Does the state association train their refs like some substitute phy. ed. teachers do, when they just "roll the ball out" and let the participants figure it out? Sounds pretty backwards to me! Too bad for the kids!

When does Wisconsin move into the 21st Century?

Originally Posted by RichMSN

She is right, but the state (IMO) has failed to push hard enough in the direction of 3-person officiating.

(1) Mandate 3-person for all varsity games

(Amazing how not a single varsity football game is worked 4-person, even when the schools involved pass 10 times between them the ENTIRE game.)

(2) Suggest a pay structure for 2-3 years where the officials have to take a 3-for-2 deal for the first 2 or so years and this gives the schools time to figure out how to pay the extra $1300 or so that it would take to cover 22 varsity games (11 boys, 11 girls).

(3) The conferences should simply say: "For the next 2 seasons, we're hiring 3 officials and we are paying $40 per. Either you work it or you don't. Please let us know where you've received state-approved 3-person training." If the officials aren't willing to do this, hire people who are. Deal with the pain of transition and acknowledge that it won't be seamless.

(4) Restructure the playoffs so that half the first round is played on Tuesday and half on Wednesday. Do the same with the second round. Problem eliminated. You do not need to have every girls' team in the state playing on Tuesday February 26.

It's easy to say "there aren't enough good officials." The hard thing is to think outside the box and fix the problem with the goal being 3-person in every varsity game in the state within 3 years.

(It'll never happen.)

And the state should support those who WANT to work 3-person. Last season I worked a boys varsity game with a guy who spent the entire time there complaining about 3-person. He rotated ONCE the entire game (which was one more time than the other guy, while I kept annoying them by rotating whenever the play dictated, sometimes multiple times in a trip). Kept saying how he can't wait until they go back to 2-man. Then I turn on the state tourney and he's working. Gotta love it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BearBoy

You mean WISCONSIN doesn't have enough "good" officials to ref 3-person? What a sack of crap - How do they train officials? Has there been any proactivity by the state association? No college experienced officials to help advocate for 3-person at HS varsity level during the season. Has WIAA "dropped the ball" on this issue? Too bad for the kids!

Does the state association train their refs like some substitute phy. ed. teachers do, when they just "roll the ball out" and let the participants figure it out? Sounds pretty backwards to me! Too bad for the kids!

When does Wisconsin move into the 21st Century?

This is why I was licensed in Illinois and worked about a dozen games down there per season for 6 seasons. 3-person, 3-person pay, no big deal.

[Rich]

I found this old thread and I noticed a few things:

(1) I really miss Mick.

(2) Nothing has changed here. Not a thing.

And it's 3 years later. And the first 2 rounds are still 2-person. And some of the conferences that went 3-person have gone back to 2-person. And there's no real commitment to move the state towards 3-person officiating across the board.

I've heard an interesting proposal I'd get right behind. Right now, many conferences pay $120 for varsity officials and $80 for freshman and JV officials (2 per game). That's $280 per night, assuming one freshman team. Drop the pay for the varsity officials to $55 (that's $165 for a 3-person crew) and drop the freshman/JV pay from $40 to $30. It would cost the schools $5 more a night, TOTAL.

Before anyone thinks I'm against the FR/JV officials, let me point out that in *many* communities, the FR/JV officials do not join associations, do not attend camps, and do not have any desire to ever do more than work those preliminary games. In many cases, the officiating is beyond terrible and the only motivation for those guys is to get a paycheck.

For those who don't fit this bill, there will be many openings at the varsity level since every game will be played with 3 officials.

I'm sure I'll be back in 3 years pointing out that nothing has changed.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm sure I'll be back in 3 years pointing out that nothing has changed.

And that we still miss mick. Of course that'll be this time next year, and not 3 years from now.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

To me, it's an odd thing. I want to work 3 100% of the time, but I want a full game check for a full game's work.

In a 40-game season (a few left), I worked about 15 3-person games and was paid a full check for all but 2 (I'll work 3-for-2 with certain people once in a while and over the holidays or early in the season).

I won't play "mother-may-I" with coaches/ADs, either -- when I find out they want all kind of approval to do it, then they'll just get the 2 officials they were contracted.

Wonder if pay went up for table people or school admins who work games over past three years?


Around here, a middle school teacher can sit by gym entrance surfing Internet acting as 'security' while munching snacks for 60 bucks or so for two games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Wonder if pay went up for table people or school admins who work games over past three years?


Around here, a middle school teacher can sit by gym entrance surfing Internet acting as 'security' while munching snacks for 60 bucks or so for two games.

And yet the schools only complain about the cost of a third official. It's OK if an "insider" gets paid, but some outsider who comes in to referee? Heh.

[onetime1]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Around here, a middle school teacher can sit by gym entrance surfing Internet acting as 'security' while munching snacks for 60 bucks or so for two games.

Could you just have this guy then put on a stripe shirt and maybe call a line or two out of bounds during the game to earn his money?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by onetime1

Could you just have this guy then put on a stripe shirt and maybe call a line or two out of bounds during the game to earn his money?

you know my partner?