Requirement or Courtesy?

[just another ref]

It is the timer's job to start and stop the clock. But we observe the clock and have a count to help the situation if he fails to do so correctly.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is the timer's job to start and stop the clock. But we observe the clock and have a count to help the situation if he fails to do so correctly.

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

Reasonably inferred from 2-11-6, for when the last timeout is taken (zero is a number):

ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Reasonably inferred from 2-11-6, for when the last timeout is taken (zero is a number):

ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

[WreckRef]

2-11-6 says notify coach through official, nowhere does it say official is to go get this information.

Can we all agree that the SCORER is responsible for informing the coach, through the official when they have taken their final TO?

So if it's the scorer's responsibility to tell the official and they do not inform the official, it is a courtesy if the official finds out this information on their own to tell a coach (recommended at lower levels with unpaid volunteers coaching and at scorers table.) Nowhere does it say we are REQUIRED to do this or ever tell a coach how many TO's they have remaining.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

Rule❒2 Officials and Their Duties

SECTION 1 GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS

ART. 1 . . .

The official’s uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black

pants, entirely black shoes and black socks.

ART. 2 . . .

The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and

two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.

ART. 3 . . .

The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s

table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer

be seated next to each other.

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

The scorer shall:

ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul,

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer.

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not our fault if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not our fault if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer.

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not our fault if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not our fault if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

M&M:

Red Question: What information do you mean? That the team has no more "free" timeouts left, or the number of "free" timeouts the team has left?

Blue Statement: With regard to informing a team that it does not have any more "free" timeouts left, the duties of the Officials and the Scorer are the same under both NFHS and NCAA Rules. The Article (NFHS R2-S11-A6 and NCAA R2-S9-A9) pertaining to the Scorer's duties pre-dates the NHFS and NCAA Rules Committees, going back to the days of the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada. NCAA R2-S7-A15 was added as a clarification to accompany NCAA R2-S9-A9.

The fact is that it has always (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been an Official's duty to inform a team when it has used its last "free" timeout. And that the only way that this can be done is when the Scorer notifies an Official that a team has used its last "free" timeout.

MTD, Sr.

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

[mick]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mick

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility?

What would you say to a coach, who after he tells a player to foul, and finds out that was that player's 5th foul, "Why didn't you tell me that player had 4 fouls?!?"

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What would you say to a coach, who after he tells a player to foul, and finds out that was that player's 5th foul, "Why didn't you tell me that player had 4 fouls?!?"

Uh Coach, .... now you have 15 seconds to replace him.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by WreckRef

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

I have said this before and I will say this again. The NF's position on any mechanics are they are not absolutes and do not need to be followed if a state, jurisdiction or association does not want to follow them. And that did not come from me that came from Mary Struckoff herself when I asked her this issue directly. The NF Manual is to give a guideline so there is some uniformity, but they know that states, organizations or boards do not follow them and they do not try to tell states how to use mechanics. Just like the NF cannot tell states how to license officials or train officials, they cannot tell states what they want their officials to do as it relates to everything from what they wear to what mechanics they use or do not use.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

I do not know where you have received your information but I have never read anything that has asked officials to "find out" what the timeout situation is with teams. I have never seen any such thing suggested. All we have is a rule that is in my opinion is purposely vague. I do not see any penalty for us doing this or not doing this other than maybe someone that evaluates you to get upset about this. I have yet to find an evaluator/assignor care that much if at all.

Peace

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have said this before and I will say this again. The NF's position on any mechanics are they are not absolutes and do not need to be followed if a state, jurisdiction or association does not want to follow them. And that did not come from me that came from Mary Struckoff herself when I asked her this issue directly.

I am pleased to know that using standard signs are optional. I have several that I have invented all by myself that I am dying to use, and now I see that the editor of the rule book has decreed that the mechanics are optional.

Question: Does this mean she can use her editorial fiat in other areas and change substantive playing rules as well? What if she decreed that it would henceforth be a foul to go "over the back?" Apparently she has more power than the rules committee...