So, how'd you like a game to start like THIS?

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, do the mops shoot the FT's? And which bucket do they shoot at?


Anyway, while I may not lose much sleep if you were to call the T, I would try to talk you out of it initially and try to talk you into a delay warning instead. How is it significantly different than delaying the game because they had to wipe up spilled water off the floor? Sure, you can say it took significantly longer to wipe up the powder, but I don't see any time limit in the delay provisions that say after a certain amount of time for cleanup, go directly to a T rather than giving the warning.

The advantage to the warning is now that team will get the T for any other delay for the rest of the game.

The action did cause a delay - but not a minute or two to towel up some water - they actually had to move to a different court. Not the same thing IMHO. WHACK!!!! As stated before they did it to draw attention to themselves and get a "yay John" from the fans. It was unsporting.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

The action did cause a delay - but not a minute or two to towel up some water - they actually had to move to a different court. Not the same thing IMHO. WHACK!!!! As stated before they did it to draw attention to themselves and get a "yay John" from the fans. It was unsporting.

Alright, let me ask you this - let's say the floor has a new finish put on it, and there are specific instructions to keep water off the floor until it has finished curing. Then, during a TO, A1 spills some water on the floor that causes the finish to become sticky at that spot. It takes more than a minute or two to try and dry it up, but they figure it's safer to move the game to a different court. Is that also a T, instead of a warning? If so, is it Team Technical, or is it charged to the individual? Is it an indirect to the head coach?

I guess I'm only arguing the reason for the T. If you say the T is because the game was delayed excessively, I would argue against that because there is no time limit mentioned in the rules. If you want to give the T directly to the player for unsporting conduct, I would feel more comfortable with that solution.

[chartrusepengui]

my initial judgement was that the action was unsporting. But I would T in either case (delay or sporting) The last scenario you posted with new finish and water is not the same. One is accidental - the other was done on purpose - knowing there would need to be a clean up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

my initial judgement was that the action was unsporting. But I would T in either case (delay or sporting) The last scenario you posted with new finish and water is not the same. One is accidental - the other was done on purpose - knowing there would need to be a clean up.

Do they spend time cleaning up after LeBron? Does LeBron's powder-clap delay the start of his games? If not, how can you say this player knew there would need to be a clean up? Had this player done it before and delayed the start of other games? Had he done it before without any issues? Or is this the first time he tried it?

Again, I don't have a big problem with an unsporting T charged directly to the player. But I still don't see how a T for delay can be charged, especially without a prior warning. Also, there's a difference between charging a team technical for delay, and charging an unsporting T directly to the player. The team T only gets added to the team foul count, while the unsporting T also gets charged to the player, and as an indirect to the head coach, since it happened before the game started.

[chartrusepengui]

I don't give a rats butt about LeBron or his actions - as juvenile as they appear all too often. I've already told you what I would have done and the reasons. If LeBron takes the 6 steps that the NBE allow - does that also mean we should allow this in HS too?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I don't give a rats butt about LeBron or his actions - as juvenile as they appear all too often. I've already told you what I would have done and the reasons. If LeBron takes the 6 steps that the NBE allow - does that also mean we should allow this in HS too?

Only on a crab dribble.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Only on a crab dribble.

Point taken

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I don't give a rats butt about LeBron or his actions - as juvenile as they appear all too often. I've already told you what I would have done and the reasons. If LeBron takes the 6 steps that the NBE allow - does that also mean we should allow this in HS too?

Of course not. I'm not sure where I said that?

I was only responding to the comments about giving a T for the delay:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

But I would T in either case (delay or sporting) The last scenario you posted with new finish and water is not the same. One is accidental - the other was done on purpose - knowing there would need to be a clean up.

How can you back up your statement about the kid knowing there would be a clean up needed? Can you know for certain the kid didn't think he would be able to do it without causing a mess that needed to be cleaned up? That's my point - if the kid watches LeBron do it before games, and there's no delay, how can you say the kid did it on purpose knowing there would be a delay?

Also, please notice the difference in rules between a T for delay, and a T for unsporting conduct. I still have yet to see anyone give me a good rules reason for charging a T for the delay.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Of course not. I'm not sure where I said that?

I was only responding to the comments about giving a T for the delay:

How can you back up your statement about the kid knowing there would be a clean up needed? Can you know for certain the kid didn't think he would be able to do it without causing a mess that needed to be cleaned up? That's my point - if the kid watches LeBron do it before games, and there's no delay, how can you say the kid did it on purpose knowing there would be a delay?

Also, please notice the difference in rules between a T for delay, and a T for unsporting conduct. I still have yet to see anyone give me a good rules reason for charging a T for the delay.

Maybe we shouldn't give a T or a delay - how about a sign to wear that says "idiot in uniform"? Can you say, "common sense"? And if he didn't have it, would you actually believe that no one else knew he was going to do it. Sorry - perhaps he deserves a T for being and idiot.

[mutantducky]

ha. this story is funny. I'm going to tell the people I play ball with about it. I wonder if LeBron uses something different because that has to go on the court as well. Maybe one day the stat and tv people will sue him because they inhaled so much chalk or whatever it is he uses.

[Nevadaref]

After some reflection, I agree with M&M that it is MORE appropriate to charge a technical foul for unsporting conduct to a starter who does this as it is definitely an individual attention situation and the NFHS has provided a clear directive to not allow such.

However, if the offenders are in the crowd, as one of the first posters proposed, then the team technical foul is the appropriate call if the start of the game has to be delayed.

[just another ref]

Whole new question:

10-1-5: .......not being ready when it is time to start either half.

Who ultimately decides "when it is time to start" the first half?

The OP happened during intros. If game management says "Hold up while we clean the floor," or, for that matter, any number of other reasons, what authority does the official have to say "Game time."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Whole new question:

10-1-5: .......not being ready when it is time to start either half.

Who ultimately decides "when it is time to start" the first half?

The OP happened during intros. If game management says "Hold up while we clean the floor," or, for that matter, any number of other reasons, what authority does the official have to say "Game time."

Were the officials told a scheduled game time?

I would consider any deliberate act which prevents starting at that time to be unacceptable.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Alright, let me ask you this - let's say the floor has a new finish put on it, and there are specific instructions to keep water off the floor until it has finished curing. Then, during a TO, A1 spills some water on the floor that causes the finish to become sticky at that spot. It takes more than a minute or two to try and dry it up, but they figure it's safer to move the game to a different court. Is that also a T, instead of a warning? If so, is it Team Technical, or is it charged to the individual? Is it an indirect to the head coach?

I guess I'm only arguing the reason for the T. If you say the T is because the game was delayed excessively, I would argue against that because there is no time limit mentioned in the rules. If you want to give the T directly to the player for unsporting conduct, I would feel more comfortable with that solution.

Instead of parsing the rules, use common sense as M&M has suggested here. The guy is drawing attention to himself and this is no different than the guy puffing out his shirt after making a basket.

[UNH IM Ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

there are specific instructions to keep water off the floor until it has finished curing. Then, during a TO, A1 spills some water on the floor that causes the finish to become sticky at that spot.

No way jose that floor is not ready for play anyway. Besides spilling water while drinking during a TO & throwing dust for your own aggrandizement before a game are 2 extremely different things IMO. One's a T & the other is common in-game court maintenance.