"An actionless contest"...?

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

If the V coach didn't like it, why didn't he have his players go out and get a 5 count going. This is nothing the officials can or should address. This is coaching.

Cosign. If the coach didn't think of this, that AD should seriously consider finding someone else.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by williebfree

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

waaah!

Individual records should not be kept or sought in amateur team sports.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by williebfree

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

Did it occur to you that perhaps the player who set the record which your teammate was attempting to break might have faced that same strategy a few times himself and had to overcome it in achieving his point total and establishing the mark?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by williebfree

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

I am guessing that your HS team likely played lots of zone -- gave your scorer more energy at the offensive end. Personally, I hope we never put a shot clock in at the high school level as the "shorten the game" strategy can be a great equalizer.

As has been mentioned, there is no rule prohibiting the defense from playing (shutter the thought) more than 20 feet from the basket they are trying to defend. I would employ this strategy -- ALWAYS at the end of each quarter (even if we were behind by a single digit margin) -- on a regular basis. This is simple clock game management at the end of each quarter. Why give the other team a chance to score, if you don't have to? Too many coaches want to spend ZERO time on man-to-man defense in practice. They just want to line up in their zone and work on offense for two hours. Why should a team that spends LOTS of time on man-to-man defense in practice be penalized by forcing to play against the other team's strength?

My players LOVED IT when the other team's parents would start booing and yelling and complaining. They took even more joy in seeing the other team's coach complain. Typically, the other team would eventually come flying out after us. We were always in a "ready to attack" position: point guard holding the ball, but still having his dribble available; wings out wide near the sidelines about five feet from the division line; and posts in the corners about three feet off the sideline and three feet off the endline. As soon as the defense came out, we would execute our spread offense -- usually leading to a lay-up via a back door cut.

While these games frequently had very little action for a period of time, there was virtually always TONS of action after the other teams would come out of their zone. With little experience playing helpside defense, wing denial defense, etc., these teams were typically easy pickins' early on in our spread offense.

While the parties representing the defense can complain that the offense is "not playing basketball", it is the defense that is ALLOWING the offense to "not play basketball." When teams try to hold the ball against my team, I look at the game situation. Sometimes, I let them (if I have a player or two in foul trouble, for example). In most cases, we will come out and play aggressive man-to-man defense. Usually, below the college level, a team (especially if the team on defense is more talented) will not be able to successfully hold the ball under pressure.

The reason the shot clock was put into college basketball is that many teams -- particularly Big Ten and ACC teams -- were taking the air out of the ball with five or six minutes left in a two point game. Since most teams had talented ballhandlers in these conferences, teams virtually had to foul to get the ball back. These last five, six minutes or even more became free throw shooting contests exhibitions and not much more. Hence, the shot clock was enacted.

[williebfree]

Bob Jenkins, Nevadaref, et al... I understand your perspectives and openly admit my posting was from MY mindset (as an adolescent) in the late 70's, when it occurred. As an official now, I call the action as it occurs, by the rules as they are written.

CMHCoachNRef you did an excellent (and eloquent) job of promoting coaching decisions to force the play/action to your team's strengths. Well Done!

and now I can move on to greener pastures....

[LSams]

I remember a story an old partner told me about a similar situation.

Team went into a stall about 5 minutes left in a quarter. The point guard stood with the ball, in the frontcourt for about 4 minutes. Defense stays in the zone, they all just sit there for the 4 minutes.

Clock gets down to about the 1 minute mark, so they are getting ready to put their play into motion. Point guard, still holding the ball, does the thing where you wipe the dust off the bottom of your shoe to get better traction -- picks one foot up, wipes it off. Picks other foot up, wipes it off -- My former partner -- tweet -- traveling -- ball handler just changed his pivot foot.

[zeedonk]

Thanks for the rule reference- It was starting to drive me nuts. I would only look forward to the stall ball if it were my obervation and I could make the travelling call on the kid who wiped his shoes before beginning his dribble- Hell I might retire after that! Staying awake for a quarter then catching the travel...? Sheer perfection.
Z

[Zoochy]

A few years ago. Girls JV game. Beginning of 3rd Quarter, A1 inbounds the ball to A2. She held the ball for 6 minutes. Coach of Team yelled to start the play at 1 minute. Every just stood around for 6 minutes. I was the lead official of a 2 official game. Things that ran through my head were: Did she start a dribble? Did she move any feet, thus establishing a pivot foot? Lucky for us, when it got to 1 minute, she passed the ball.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

A few years ago. Girls JV game. Beginning of 3rd Quarter, A1 inbounds the ball to A2. She held the ball for 6 minutes. Coach of Team yelled to start the play at 1 minute. Every just stood around for 6 minutes. I was the lead official of a 2 official game. Things that ran through my head were: Did she start a dribble? Did she move any feet, thus establishing a pivot foot? Lucky for us, when it got to 1 minute, she passed the ball.

We'll assume she passed the ball legally.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by LSams

I remember a story an old partner told me about a similar situation.

Team went into a stall about 5 minutes left in a quarter. The point guard stood with the ball, in the frontcourt for about 4 minutes. Defense stays in the zone, they all just sit there for the 4 minutes.

Clock gets down to about the 1 minute mark, so they are getting ready to put their play into motion. Point guard, still holding the ball, does the thing where you wipe the dust off the bottom of your shoe to get better traction -- picks one foot up, wipes it off. Picks other foot up, wipes it off -- My former partner -- tweet -- traveling -- ball handler just changed his pivot foot.

It would be funny if A1 used his dribble then held the ball for 4 minutes then forgot that he couldn't dribble anymore.

[JugglingReferee]

If I ever get one of these situations, I'm going to stop the clock, privately ask the Team A HC how much time he will allow his team to stand there with the ball before making a move. Then I will privately ask the Team B HC how much time will he allow this before his team plays defense. Then I will instruct the timer to put on the score clock the value that is furthest from zeros.

Example: 8:00 on the clock, and there's a stall. Team A HC wants 0:15 before offensive movements begin. B HC will play defense at 0:30. I'll put :30 up and away we go. There, I just saved around 7:30.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If I ever get one of these situations, I'm going to stop the clock, privately ask the Team A HC how much time he will allow his team to stand there with the ball before making a move. Then I will privately ask the Team B HC how much time will he allow this before his team plays defense. Then I will instruct the timer to put on the score clock the value that is furthest from zeros.

Example: 8:00 on the clock, and there's a stall. Team A HC wants 0:15 before offensive movements begin. B HC will play defense at 0:30. I'll put :30 up and away we go. There, I just saved around 7:30.

Shortening the quarter is definitely the way to go. It's brilliant!

I had a two stalls in one game last over six minutes each, and sadly didn't even think of asking the coaches if they simply desired to shorten the quarter.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Forksref

AMEN!

When I was coaching, at various times we would "shorten the game" by running time off the clock. Not a total stall but literally shortening the game. Say the time was 5:43 on the clock. We'd run our offense without a shot until the clock got under 5:00. From a coaching standpoint it can be very dangerous to totally stall as this takes away the momentum that you've built.

This is going to date me, but I seem to remember a game in the ACC way back in the 60's or 70's where the final score was something like 7-5. I am sure this promoted the introduction of the shot clock. We have a shot clock here in the big schools and it seems to work ok for HS kids.

Tennessee/Temple, 12/15/1973. Final score was 11-6 Tennessee.

My former (and now deceased) supervisor was one of the referees, I believe.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Tennessee/Temple, 12/15/1973. Final score was 11-6 Tennessee.

My former (and now deceased) supervisor was one of the referees, I believe.

The game bored him to death? (Sorry.)

I believe one of our new posters, BubbaRef, has some first-hand knowledge of a boy's varsity game in the area just recently that had a halftime score of 0 - 0, because one team wanted to stall and keep it out of the other team's hands.