"An actionless contest"...?

[doubleringer]

If the V coach didn't like it, why didn't he have his players go out and get a 5 count going. This is nothing the officials can or should address. This is coaching.

[LSams]

although unorthodox, this is good strategy.

In HS ball, especially, a coach has to use the personnel that are enrolled at the school, and go out for sport. If the talent is not the best, you sometimes have to get creative with strategy.

In college ball, if your talent is not "good enough," as a coach, that's your fault because you recruit your players. I think this contrast is one of the primary reasons that we have a shot-clock in college ball and not in HS ball (except for a few exceptions).

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

We had an varsity girls game in our league a few years ago that finished 11-5. Visiting coach played only 2-3 zone all the time. Home team had no good shooters and decided they had enough ball-handling and patience. It was 2-0 home late in the third quarter when a home player, after holding for 7:50ish, drove in, scored, and was fouled. She made the FT and home went into the fourth up 5-0. After some more stalling, visitors finally had to come out of the zone with a couple minutes left and couldn't make up the difference.

I always thought it was one of the greatest pieces of high school coaching I had ever seen. He had to get his players to buy in, make sure they had the ball-handling and the poise to get through any surprise defensive efforts, and deal with anybody (like the visiting coach) who would be unhappy about it.

[williebfree]

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by williebfree

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

waaah!

Individual records should not be kept or sought in amateur team sports.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by williebfree

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

Did it occur to you that perhaps the player who set the record which your teammate was attempting to break might have faced that same strategy a few times himself and had to overcome it in achieving his point total and establishing the mark?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by williebfree

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

I am guessing that your HS team likely played lots of zone -- gave your scorer more energy at the offensive end. Personally, I hope we never put a shot clock in at the high school level as the "shorten the game" strategy can be a great equalizer.

As has been mentioned, there is no rule prohibiting the defense from playing (shutter the thought) more than 20 feet from the basket they are trying to defend. I would employ this strategy -- ALWAYS at the end of each quarter (even if we were behind by a single digit margin) -- on a regular basis. This is simple clock game management at the end of each quarter. Why give the other team a chance to score, if you don't have to? Too many coaches want to spend ZERO time on man-to-man defense in practice. They just want to line up in their zone and work on offense for two hours. Why should a team that spends LOTS of time on man-to-man defense in practice be penalized by forcing to play against the other team's strength?

My players LOVED IT when the other team's parents would start booing and yelling and complaining. They took even more joy in seeing the other team's coach complain. Typically, the other team would eventually come flying out after us. We were always in a "ready to attack" position: point guard holding the ball, but still having his dribble available; wings out wide near the sidelines about five feet from the division line; and posts in the corners about three feet off the sideline and three feet off the endline. As soon as the defense came out, we would execute our spread offense -- usually leading to a lay-up via a back door cut.

While these games frequently had very little action for a period of time, there was virtually always TONS of action after the other teams would come out of their zone. With little experience playing helpside defense, wing denial defense, etc., these teams were typically easy pickins' early on in our spread offense.

While the parties representing the defense can complain that the offense is "not playing basketball", it is the defense that is ALLOWING the offense to "not play basketball." When teams try to hold the ball against my team, I look at the game situation. Sometimes, I let them (if I have a player or two in foul trouble, for example). In most cases, we will come out and play aggressive man-to-man defense. Usually, below the college level, a team (especially if the team on defense is more talented) will not be able to successfully hold the ball under pressure.

The reason the shot clock was put into college basketball is that many teams -- particularly Big Ten and ACC teams -- were taking the air out of the ball with five or six minutes left in a two point game. Since most teams had talented ballhandlers in these conferences, teams virtually had to foul to get the ball back. These last five, six minutes or even more became free throw shooting contests exhibitions and not much more. Hence, the shot clock was enacted.

[williebfree]

Bob Jenkins, Nevadaref, et al... I understand your perspectives and openly admit my posting was from MY mindset (as an adolescent) in the late 70's, when it occurred. As an official now, I call the action as it occurs, by the rules as they are written.

CMHCoachNRef you did an excellent (and eloquent) job of promoting coaching decisions to force the play/action to your team's strengths. Well Done!

and now I can move on to greener pastures....

[LSams]

I remember a story an old partner told me about a similar situation.

Team went into a stall about 5 minutes left in a quarter. The point guard stood with the ball, in the frontcourt for about 4 minutes. Defense stays in the zone, they all just sit there for the 4 minutes.

Clock gets down to about the 1 minute mark, so they are getting ready to put their play into motion. Point guard, still holding the ball, does the thing where you wipe the dust off the bottom of your shoe to get better traction -- picks one foot up, wipes it off. Picks other foot up, wipes it off -- My former partner -- tweet -- traveling -- ball handler just changed his pivot foot.

[zeedonk]

Thanks for the rule reference- It was starting to drive me nuts. I would only look forward to the stall ball if it were my obervation and I could make the travelling call on the kid who wiped his shoes before beginning his dribble- Hell I might retire after that! Staying awake for a quarter then catching the travel...? Sheer perfection.
Z

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by LSams

I remember a story an old partner told me about a similar situation.

Team went into a stall about 5 minutes left in a quarter. The point guard stood with the ball, in the frontcourt for about 4 minutes. Defense stays in the zone, they all just sit there for the 4 minutes.

Clock gets down to about the 1 minute mark, so they are getting ready to put their play into motion. Point guard, still holding the ball, does the thing where you wipe the dust off the bottom of your shoe to get better traction -- picks one foot up, wipes it off. Picks other foot up, wipes it off -- My former partner -- tweet -- traveling -- ball handler just changed his pivot foot.

It would be funny if A1 used his dribble then held the ball for 4 minutes then forgot that he couldn't dribble anymore.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

If the V coach didn't like it, why didn't he have his players go out and get a 5 count going. This is nothing the officials can or should address. This is coaching.

AMEN!

When I was coaching, at various times we would "shorten the game" by running time off the clock. Not a total stall but literally shortening the game. Say the time was 5:43 on the clock. We'd run our offense without a shot until the clock got under 5:00. From a coaching standpoint it can be very dangerous to totally stall as this takes away the momentum that you've built.

This is going to date me, but I seem to remember a game in the ACC way back in the 60's or 70's where the final score was something like 7-5. I am sure this promoted the introduction of the shot clock. We have a shot clock here in the big schools and it seems to work ok for HS kids.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Forksref

This is going to date me, but I seem to remember a game in the ACC way back in the 60's or 70's where the final score was something like 7-5. I am sure this promoted the introduction of the shot clock. We have a shot clock here in the big schools and it seems to work ok for HS kids.

Back in the day didn't Dean Smith run the four corner offense just a bit?

[dbking]

Originally Posted by Forksref

AMEN!

When I was coaching, at various times we would "shorten the game" by running time off the clock. Not a total stall but literally shortening the game. Say the time was 5:43 on the clock. We'd run our offense without a shot until the clock got under 5:00. From a coaching standpoint it can be very dangerous to totally stall as this takes away the momentum that you've built.

This is going to date me, but I seem to remember a game in the ACC way back in the 60's or 70's where the final score was something like 7-5. I am sure this promoted the introduction of the shot clock. We have a shot clock here in the big schools and it seems to work ok for HS kids.

The coach must have watched the replay of the REAL Hoosiers teams on ESPN Classic on Saturday. Bobby Plump, Jimmy Chitwood, held the ball for almost the entire 4th quarter to lead the Milan Little Giants to beat the Muncie Central Bearcats with a thrilling score of something like 32 - 30.

I "exploited" the rule change the first year it happened (the elimination of the team trailing being required to force action). I was coaching at a small school for the deaf, and my cousin was an assistant coach at a large school in the same metro area. We had been beaten by another school for the deaf by 12 at our gym, and then by 30-something at their gym. I went to one of my cousin's games and saw them employ something similar to the OP, only they utilized it right before the end of the quarter or half to get the last shot off. After the game, he diagrammed it out for me, and I took it back to our school. We only lost by 4 to our rivals in the first round of the conference tournament (played in their gym!), and would have won had one of our guards not gotten greedy when it was tied. The fans in the gym didn't like it, but the other coach was obviously outcoached and even admitted to such in the paper the next day!