Thought I could get throught the season but noooo....

[Adam]

Fair enough, but I would highly recommend taking the extra 20 seconds for a variety of reasons.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Fair enough, but I would highly recommend taking the extra 20 seconds for a variety of reasons.

Trust Snaq on this, he's 100% on the mark....it's hard to get yourself in trouble when you follow the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

Trust Snaq on this, he's 100% on the mark....it's hard to get yourself in trouble when you follow the rules.

Yup, otherwise you have:
Assigner: So, is it true that you gave Coach Fidiot a T for not giving you a sub?
Ref: Yes.
Assigner: Is it true you didn't give her the 20 second sub clock?
Ref: Yes.
Assigner: So what was your rule basis for the T?
Ref: ????


By rule, coach has 20 seconds to provide the sub, and what they say in the interim does not shorten that time limit. You called the T before she broke the rule.

[KJUmp]

Snags..nice job on how to handle the situation and how to utilize the 20sec. clock in the sitch. I'm new and DID NOT realize that you could/should use the clock in the injury sub sitch. AND that you don't utilize it unti lthe HC is finished attending to the injured player.
Filed away for future reference&use if/when necessary.

[shishstripes]

Why wasn't the coach offered to take a time out?

"Coach, you have a choice you can put a sub in for your injured player or you may take a time out and she can stay in."

You don't want to take a time out? Ok you have 20 seconds to replace your player. Timer give me 20 seconds."

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jmuvol

Final set of games on my schedule for the year, Girls and Boys 8th grade games. I have been told all season by members of the association, I'm new to the Savannah area, how bad the coaches in the area run off at the mouth but I didn't have any issues this season. 3 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter of the Girls game, red player drives the basket, defender chasing, defender fouls, partner has the call, red player stumbles into the wall padding. She then walks a few feet toward her bench, sits down and starts to cry. Coach begins to head her direction so I hit the whistle to alert my partner we have a stoppage of play because of the "injury." After 30 seconds or so, she gets up and starts to head to the free throw line. My conversation with the coach went something like this:

Me: Coach, I need a sub for #12.
Coach: What! Why!
Me: We stopped play for you to attend to her.
coach: She was hurt...you should have called an intentional foul.
Me: I understand coach...I need a sub please.
Coach: This is ridiculous...she was intentionally fouled!
Me: I still need a sub coach.
Coach: I'm not sending in a sub!
Me: Tweet...report T. Coach, sub please.

Sub enters, misses both free throws. White misses both free throws. And away we went. Coach was fine the rest of the game. So much for my "perfect" season...

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just so you know, here's how the conversation should have gone.

He may have still persisted and earned his T, but it might have been prevented with the proper mechanics.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Unless he is unsportsmanlike in the process, of course.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yup, otherwise you have:
Assigner: So, is it true that you gave Coach Fidiot a T for not giving you a sub?
Ref: Yes.
Assigner: Is it true you didn't give her the 20 second sub clock?
Ref: Yes.
Assigner: So what was your rule basis for the T?
Ref: ????


By rule, coach has 20 seconds to provide the sub, and what they say in the interim does not shorten that time limit. You called the T before she broke the rule.

Originally Posted by shishstripes

Why wasn't the coach offered to take a time out?

"Coach, you have a choice you can put a sub in for your injured player or you may take a time out and she can stay in."

You don't want to take a time out? Ok you have 20 seconds to replace your player. Timer give me 20 seconds."

All excellent points in this "seemingly" simple situation. First of all, I like Shaqs reminder about the 20 second timeframe. I also like shish's suggestion regarding offering a timeout request. Having been on both "sides" of this situation in the past, I would like to offer yet another possibility -- which provides some rules information, an option, then execution. If not followed, the same T will result.

I try to keep the coach off of the floor if I don't think the player is injured (knowing that the player must be replaced or a TO spent to buy the player back into the game). In youth games, players (girls more so than boys, but it applies to both) tend to think they are hurt much more seriously than they are. But, once I beckon the coach, what is done is done.

To start with, I try to stay away from the coach while he/she is working with the player. Once the player is able to get up and proceed to the sideline, I would prefer to have one of my non-foul-calling partners (or only partner) inform the coach of the situation.

Partner: Coach, as you know, the rules require that, regardless of the reason, you replace an injured player once you come out on the floor to check on the player.
Coach: That isn't fair, that was an intentional foul.
Partner: I understand coach, but the rules still state that you must replace an injured player once you come out on the floor to check on the player. Another option available to you is you can call a timeout at this time. In this case, your player would then be able to shoot her free throws. Otherwise, we need a sub per the rules.

This method allows for communicating the rule to the coach by the non-calling official. It also provides an inferred compliment to the coach (that he or she knows the rule). The option of calling the timeout is provided to the coach, as well.

I am also slower to start the 20 second clock in this case. I will NOT start the clock until the player is completely off the court and either heading to the locker room or in the bench area. At that point, I ask the timer to start the 20 second clock time interval for the substitute requesting the warning horn at the five second mark.

In this case, the fact that the coach apparently came out onto the floor without being beckoned (I know, by rule, a technical foul, but common sense tells us to allow the coach to check on the player). Once jmuvol sounded the whistle, it would have been advisable for the non-calling official to have the conversation with the coach.

If the coach continued to be belligerent in this case, an unsporting technical foul could have been called without waiting the 20 seconds, in my opinion. Would I have waited the 20 seconds as Shaqs suggests? Quite probably, yes. But, at the same time, the coach was being defiant. I could see an assignor accepting the calling of a technical foul in this case without waiting for the 20 seconds. The technical would not be for failing to provide a sub in the required 20 seconds, it would be for unsporting behavior.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I am also slower to start the 20 second clock in this case. I will NOT start the clock until the player is completely off the court and either heading to the locker room or in the bench area. At that point, I ask the timer to start the 20 second clock time interval for the substitute requesting the warning horn at the five second mark.

BTW, what you say here is provided for directly in the case book (10.5.2 Situation A). I am pretty anal about not starting any clock until the right moment, including waiting until both teams are in their huddles before starting a time-out clock.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Partner: Coach, as you know, the rules require that, regardless of the reason, you replace an injured player once you come out on the floor to check on the player.
Coach: That isn't fair, that was an intentional foul.
Partner: I understand coach, but the rules still state that you must replace an injured player once you come out on the floor to check on the player. Another option available to you is you can call a timeout at this time. In this case, your player would then be able to shoot her free throws. Otherwise, we need a sub per the rules.

This method allows for communicating the rule to the coach by the non-calling official. It also provides an inferred compliment to the coach (that he or she knows the rule). The option of calling the timeout is provided to the coach, as well.

I like where you're going with this and, although it's not our responsibility to remind the coach he may keep the player in the game with a TO, it is likely good game management.

From what I read in the OP, jmuvol WAS the non-calling official...so by your thinking it was entirely appropriate for him to have the conversation with the coach. As you said, common sense should dictate our actions when there is a player down and not being in a hurry to start the 20-sec. replacement clock is smart.

However, there's no need to let the coach engage you in an extended discussion. I think Snaq's point is, once the player is off the floor, the 20-sec. clock is your friend and you shouldn't be afraid to use it as detailed in the rules. It didn't appear to me from the OP that the 20-sec. replacement interval was even considered.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

Why wasn't the coach offered to take a time out?

This was my first thought as well. You're demanding that the coach do something that she doesn't really have to do.

Ref: Coach, I need a sub.
Coach: Why? She's ok now!
Ref: If you don't want to sub, I can give you a time-out to keep her in. Which do you want?

[Jmuvol]

Thanks for all the input folks. The thought of offering her a time out never crossed my mind. I'll store all these away for use at a later date.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yup, otherwise you have:
Assigner: So, is it true that you gave Coach Fidiot a T for not giving you a sub?
Ref: Yes.
Assigner: Is it true you didn't give her the 20 second sub clock?
Ref: Yes.
Assigner: So what was your rule basis for the T?
Ref: ????


By rule, coach has 20 seconds to provide the sub, and what they say in the interim does not shorten that time limit. You called the T before she broke the rule.

Unless he is unsportsmanlike in the process, of course.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Unless he is unsportsmanlike in the process, of course.

Of course, which leads to a question.
Ref: "Coach, I need a sub."
Coach: "Yuck Fou, I'm not giving you one."

You give the unsporting T, but do you wait to report it until the 20 second clock has expired or the sub is in? If the coach waits the full 20 seconds, does he get two now?

[Forksref]

The coach was walking the legal path to a T if you had let her. You have no second thoughts when they do it for you by rule.

As for clocking, 20 sec. is a long time. You'd think security would step in by then. Ouch!

Whacking is much quicker.