Conduct: Both Players and Officials

[camargue44]

This evening in a rec league game where I regularly play I was defending the rebounder in transition. We had both gone up for the ball and he had come down with it. I continued to defend him with arms completely outstretched to make the outlet pass more difficult. I was very close to him but neither my body nor my hands were in contact with he or the ball. He brought the ball up with elbows out above his shoulders and swung them from side to side. Because I was defending closely his elbow hit me across the face and knocked me back. The whistle blew and obviously I was thankful that my good "d" was rewarded. BUT a defensive foul was called on me. I was stunned.

I looked at the official who blew the whistle (the trailing official) and said verbatim in a calm voice "What did I do, what's the call?". He said "you fouled him". I disagreed, clearly, but I said "right, what is the foul?". I wanted to know what he was calling: a hold, a push, etc. because clearly I was knocked back by an elbow above shoulder level.

MY QUESTION: Is it required that the referee specify the foul? Routinely, on questionable plays like this when asked respectfully he won't elaborate on the foul. Even to the scorer's table he only says it is "a foul" on sketchy calls - he won't specify. As a player, if I ask so I know what I'm doing wrong, shouldn't a referee who is acting professionally at least explain the call? Most importantly, as a referee are you not required to specify the type of foul after the initial whistle? You cannot just call "a foul" and leave it at that, right?

Please fill me in if I'm missing something. This referee consistently threatens to "T you up" when asked repeatedly about these calls. But I feel I'm owed something if I'm respectful and blood is streaming out of my nose or I'm having to pick myself up off the floor.

Thanks.

Love this forum and I truly have a lot of respect for basketball officials because much of the calls are so subjective - thus the need for this forum and discussion!

P.S. We play using Georgia Highschool Rules and I thought it was pretty much a universal that once the elbows come up above shoulder height and are swung (even if no contact is made) that's either a "tech" or some kind of turnover.

[just another ref]

Strictly speaking, a referee is never "required" to specify the type of foul. While there are approved mechanics which do make this appropriate, the exact way in which a foul is reported varies greatly from one official to the next, or even one call to the next. This is further complicated by the fact that the signals very often fail to accurately describe/do justice to what actually has taken place. When you consider all that, then add the fact that this is a rec league, you kinda have to take what you get. Finally, if you say he missed the call, we will take your word for it, but questioning the call after the fact rarely helps. If you were actually bleeding, this might help to communicate what happened, but, make no mistake, it is possible to commit a foul with your face.

[26 Year Gap]

1.excessive swinging of the elbows is a violation

2.making contact is a foul

3.Rec league is not where you will find the highest quality officials, players or coaches

4.Proper mechanics on a foul call include the nature of the foul when being reported to the table [see 3 above]

[Forksref]

I will respond to any question that is respectfully asked. I don't respond to comments, if possible.

The quality of officiating in rec leagues is not usually as good as scholastic leagues because a lot of the communication from players in rec leagues is not respectful.

[camargue44]

Thanks for the quick response. And I appreciate that your face can be used to commit a foul as much as your hands or your body. I was just under the impression that if we're both upright and the only contact between my body and his is an elbow to my face ABOVE shoulder level that there really is little room for interpretation.

Thank you for clarifying though - I was under the impression that there were set types of fouls: push, hold, block, etc. and though not all "fouls" fit neatly into each type you had to call something when you blew the whistle not just "a foul". I'll keep that in mind next time realizing he's not required to specify. Haha, though it would be nice to know why I'm bleeding.

[camargue44]

I understand...I've played competitive organized basketball all my life and I have a lot of respect and working knowledge of the game so I tend to expect the same respect for the game from officials. Unfortunately, it is hard to find in rec leagues which I'm now forced to play in - even though they're fairly high skill level leagues. When I play in leagues with obviously certified and experienced officials I definitely express my appreciation for their presence at the end of games. It makes the game a lot more enjoyable all around.

[Adam]

If the player is pivoting his body along with his elbows, I've got nothing.
If the defender is leaning over the player with the ball and gets hit in the face by an elbow that is not swinging excessively, I've got nothing.
If a player repeatedly questions calls, I won't threaten to T him up. I will warn him that I've heard enough. Next time, I will just T him up. You can ask once, politely, and I'll tell you. If you don't like my answer, tough.

[camargue44]

Fair enough. Good point about the pivoting - though it doesn't apply to my situation I'll definitely bare that in mind in the future.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Excessive swinging of the elbows is a violation.

Excessive swinging is normally viewed as when the elbows swing in a greater arc than the movement of the hips, which rebounders will often do to look for a receiver for their outlet pass. For example, if the rebounder swings their hips 180 degrees, then the elbows are also allowed to swing with the hips, that is, 180 degrees. However, if the rebounder swings his hips 180 degrees, and his elbows swing 270 degrees, then that is considered excessive swinging of the elbows.

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Making contact is a foul.

A player control foul, even if the elbows are not swinging excessively, if the defender isn't moving toward the rebounder. Could also be ruled an intentional personal foul, or a flagrant personal foul, if the elbows are swinging excessively.

[camargue44]

Ahhh, great speicifcs on the arc - I think that definitely plays into Snaqwells point about the pivoting. If you're pivoting it's unlikely your elbows will exceed the arc of your hips.


I'm not sure I understand "player control foul" definition. If a defender is set (not moving) and an offensive player uses swinging his elbows (even in a controlled manner) to control the ability of the defender to move toward him or defend him - that could be any of the fouls you listed? Did I read that right?

[camargue44]

Also BillyMac - good point about your ears. Haha. Admittedly, I regularly ignore that warning about the use of Q-tips.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the defender is leaning over the player with the ball and gets hit in the face by an elbow that is not swinging excessively, I've got nothing.

If the defender is moving into the rebounder's "cylinder", I agree. However, if the defender isn't moving into the rebounders "cylinder", if he's just standing within his "cylinder" near the rebounder, and the rebounder pivots with his elbows swinging, in the same arc as the pivot, i.e. not excessively, and the elbow moves into the defender's "cylinder", and knocks two of his teeth out, I've got a player control foul. Not intentional, not flagrant.

[mick]

camargue44,
You are not asking too much from the official.
Please find the justification of your request below.

---

From 2008-09 Points of Emphasis

5. OFFICIALS’ MECHANICS AND SIGNALS.

Communication and consistency

remain the most important elements of good officiating. It is essential for officials
to be familiar and comfortable with proper NFHS officiating mechanics and
signals. The primary reasons for utilizing only approved NFHS mechanics and
signals are:
• Effective court coverage related to Primary Coverage Areas.
• Effective communication between officiating partner(s).
• Provide immediate information and feedback to coaches, players, scorers,
timers and fans.

Signals are used to communicate and should never be used to call attention
to the official. The majority of signals are used to indicate what has or is
happening. Approved NFHS signals are dignified, informative and meaningful.
The use of unauthorized signals frequently confuses, because the meaning is
unknown. Problems are also created when officials engage in “hit and run”
officiating. This occurs when an official blows the whistle and immediately leaves the area without taking the time to follow the proper procedures for calling the foul or violation. Signals should be given in a manner that is calm, under control, unhurried and professional.

[williebfree]

Originally Posted by mick

---

From 2008-09 Points of Emphasis

5. OFFICIALS’ MECHANICS AND SIGNALS.

Communication and consistency remain the most important elements of good officiating. It is essential for officials to be familiar and comfortable with proper NFHS officiating mechanics and signals. The primary reasons for utilizing only approved NFHS mechanics and signals are:

• Effective court coverage related to Primary Coverage Areas.
• Effective communication between officiating partner(s).
• Provide immediate information and feedback to coaches, players, scorers, timers and fans.

Signals are used to communicate and should never be used to call attention to the official. The majority of signals are used to indicate what has or is happening. Approved NFHS signals are dignified, informative and meaningful. The use of unauthorized signals frequently confuses, because the meaning is unknown. Problems are also created when officials engage in “hit and run” officiating. This occurs when an official blows the whistle and immediately leaves the area without taking the time to follow the proper procedures for calling the foul or violation. Signals should be given in a manner that is calm, under control, unhurried and professional.

Nice post Mick!

Let me start this with ---- Yes, it is tiresome to hear whiny gripes, but we have tools to deal with this if it becomes excessive. But when asked respectfully we should offer "professional" explanations.

I want to focus on officials who appear in a rush (or fearful to explain their call and expose their genuine lack of rules knowledge). They also appear agitated if they are asked legitimate questions from coaches or players. It doesn't take much to clarify your ruling for a coach or player, IF you can efficient respond with the criteria used to make the call.

In regards to the OP, the official may have observed that B1 was not in a LGP, because he was moving into A1 causing displacement. If he offered a brief summarization of this to the player (camargue44) he would have understood the call and hopefully improved his understanding of the rules.

Nonetheless, confident officials with comprehensive rules knowledge, and clear, concise communication can keep things flowing smoothly. Those who are lacking these attributes are a liability to their partner. If both are lacking it can become an ugly scene.

[BktBallRef]

Have you considered the possibility that you were moving into the opponent and just didn't realize it?

I wish I had a dollar for ever player that's ever said, "I didn't touch him."