Closely Guarded Count by the Lead

[CMHCoachNRef]

We have been having a discussion concerning who owns the closely guarded count in the lead's primary when using 3-man mechanics. During a local association meeting early in the season concerning mechanics, an official who moved in from another part of the country indicated that where he was from the Lead NEVER was responsible for the closely guarded count. Most officials in our local association felt that the Lead was still responsible for the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary.

How do others handle this?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

We have been having a discussion concerning who owns the closely guarded count in the lead's primary when using 3-man mechanics. During a local association meeting early in the season concerning mechanics, an official who moved in from another part of the country indicated that where he was from the Lead NEVER was responsible for the closely guarded count. Most officials in our local association felt that the Lead was still responsible for the closely guarded count in the Lead's primary.

How do others handle this?

I never do this as the Lead in 3-whistle mechanics.

[JRutledge]

The Lead's responsibility is post play and plays near the basket. Having a closely guarded the responsibility from the lead, will potentially take them away from the basket in what they are watching. We do not have the lead give such a count and I think it is stupid to do otherwise.

Peace

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Lead's responsibility is post play and plays near the basket. Having a closely guarded the responsibility from the lead, will potentially take them away from the basket in what they are watching. We do not have the lead give such a count and I think it is stupid to do otherwise.

Peace

JRut,
I basically agree with your statements. But, let's say an entry pass has just been made into the post who is on the low block. If there are eight players on the ball side, doesn't this put two sets of eyes on the two players on the block and zero on the other six?

My main varsity crew follows your mechanic EXCEPT when the ball is literally in the low post (the situation I described). In this case -- and only in this case -- the Lead takes the count.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JRut,
I basically agree with your statements. But, let's say an entry pass has just been made into the post who is on the low block. If there are eight players on the ball side, doesn't this put two sets of eyes on the two players on the block and zero on the other six?

If the ball is on the low block, chances are other players are going there too. I have also very seldom seen a single 5 second call on the low block either. Either the ball is going to the basket or they ball is going to be passed away. And if the ball is dribbled away from the post and there is still a count, you want to take the Lead away from watching the post (where other players are located) to continue a count? That is why I feel having the lead count is stupid.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

My main varsity crew follows your mechanic EXCEPT when the ball is literally in the low post (the situation I described). In this case -- and only in this case -- the Lead takes the count.

That is fine, but the Lead needs to concentrate on the contact, not whether if they are closely guarded. Let the Trail or Center take care of that. This is not Women's college basketball or the NBA where a count only applies in a very small percentage of situations. I would never advocate such a mechanic and think that you are weakening the crew by having the lead take care of something that other officials on the crew can do. And if you think (not you personally, anyone in general) you cannot ever have more than two sets of eyes on the basketball player, then you are not aware of how the entire mechanic works. Just my opinion of course.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

The Lead never counts closely guarded.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JRut,
I basically agree with your statements. But, let's say an entry pass has just been made into the post who is on the low block. If there are eight players on the ball side, doesn't this put two sets of eyes on the two players on the block and zero on the other six?

My main varsity crew follows your mechanic EXCEPT when the ball is literally in the low post (the situation I described). In this case -- and only in this case -- the Lead takes the count.

I am not a fan of the Lead having a closely-guarded count. In fact, I have attended several camps at which the instruction has been for the Lead to abstain from this count. The reason is exactly as Rut has stated--the Lead's main responsibility is to watch for contact with the post players. However, I agree with your thought that the Lead should have this count when the ball is in the control of a post player.

It appears that the NFHS also agrees with this opinion.

From page 5 of the 2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual under the previous heading "2007-09 Mechanics Points of Emphasis":

0.1.5 Lead Count (Crew of Three): When the ball drops below the free-throw line extended on the Lead's side of the court, the Lead's main responsibility is to watch the post players on the low block. When the ball is moved into the low block and a new closely-guarded count should begin, the Lead signals the count. Too often, the Trail official begins a new count when the Lead official is still responsible. Change hands when necessary if the ball is dribbled and then picked up. If the ball is passed back outside the three-point arc, the Trail will then assume responsibility for any new count that begins.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I am not a fan of the Lead having a closely-guarded count. In fact, I have attended several camps at which the instruction has been for the Lead to abstain from this count. The reason is exactly as Rut has stated--the Lead's main responsibility is to watch for contact with the post players. However, I agree with your thought that the Lead should have this count when the ball is in the control of a post player.

It appears that the NFHS also agrees with this opinion.

From page 5 of the 2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual under the previous heading "2007-09 Mechanics Points of Emphasis":

0.1.5 Lead Count (Crew of Three): When the ball drops below the free-throw line extended on the Lead's side of the court, the Lead's main responsibility is to watch the post players on the low block. When the ball is moved into the low block and a new closely-guarded count should begin, the Lead signals the count. Too often, the Trail official begins a new count when the Lead official is still responsible. Change hands when necessary if the ball is dribbled and then picked up. If the ball is passed back outside the three-point arc, the Trail will then assume responsibility for any new count that begins.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the ball is on the low block, chances are other players are going there too. I have also very seldom seen a single 5 second call on the low block either. Either the ball is going to the basket or they ball is going to be passed away. And if the ball is dribbled away from the post and there is still a count, you want to take the Lead away from watching the post (where other players are located) to continue a count? That is why I feel having the lead count is stupid.

That is fine, but the Lead needs to concentrate on the contact, not whether if they are closely guarded. Let the Trail or Center take care of that. This is not Women's college basketball or the NBA where a count only applies in a very small percentage of situations. I would never advocate such a mechanic and think that you are weakening the crew by having the lead take care of something that other officials on the crew can do. And if you think (not you personally, anyone in general) you cannot ever have more than two sets of eyes on the basketball player, then you are not aware of how the entire mechanic works. Just my opinion of course.

Generally, in the case of the post player dribbling away from the basket, you typically will NOT have a closely guarded count. Therefore, the lead would have been focused on this match-up as the post player held the ball. If the post player is attacking the basket via the dribble, too much going on for the lead official OR the opposing coach to be worried about a count. On the other hand, if the player is dribbling away from the basket -- toward the trail's primary -- the trail is going to pick up that count.

This situation appears to be another of the many mechanics in the manual that are slightly (by our crew) to significantly (by many others) ignored. As I stated, even one of our local associations does not implement this consistently. I agree with Nevadaref that the camps typically suggest the mechanic that JRut suggests, here.

Good feedback.

[bob jenkins]

My opinion: If you're "on the ball" you should have "on ball responsibilities" -- and that includes closely guarded counts.

I agree that it's more common for the count to happen when T or C is on-ball. And it's probably even more rare than a three-second call for L to have a five-second call. That doesn't mean the L shouldn't be counting.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Generally, in the case of the post player dribbling away from the basket, you typically will NOT have a closely guarded count. Therefore, the lead would have been focused on this match-up as the post player held the ball. If the post player is attacking the basket via the dribble, too much going on for the lead official OR the opposing coach to be worried about a count. On the other hand, if the player is dribbling away from the basket -- toward the trail's primary -- the trail is going to pick up that count.

This situation appears to be another of the many mechanics in the manual that are slightly (by our crew) to significantly (by many others) ignored. As I stated, even one of our local associations does not implement this consistently. I agree with Nevadaref that the camps typically suggest the mechanic that JRut suggests, here.

Good feedback.

Nevada is quoting the NF book, which we do not use around here and things like this are the reason our state does not use the NF book anymore. That is a NCAA women's and NBA way of thinking. Those rules are different and would be more appropriate to have the lead count. But in our case, the answer is not that simply and that is why leave that to the Trail and Center.

Peace

[bigdogrunnin]

I know and understand the NFHS guidelines, BUT . . . Every camp, every clinician, and every evaluator I have had in the past 10 years has emphatically stated that the lead does not signal a closely guarded count in 3-person mechanics.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

I know and understand the NFHS guidelines, BUT . . . Every camp, every clinician, and every evaluator I have had in the past 10 years has emphatically stated that the lead does not signal a closely guarded count in 3-person mechanics.

It wasn't a camp that strictly adhered to NFHS and NCAA mechanics, then. Which is typical, in my experience.

[bigdogrunnin]

You would be correct, but when in Rome . . .

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

My opinion: If you're "on the ball" you should have "on ball responsibilities" -- and that includes closely guarded counts.

I agree that it's more common for the count to happen when T or C is on-ball. And it's probably even more rare than a three-second call for L to have a five-second call. That doesn't mean the L shouldn't be counting.

You and I are on the same page.

In NFHS mechanics (from what I remember), the L has "on ball" responsibilities inside the 3-point arc across to the midpoint of the lane. The L should turn his/her body away from the post (square up) to let the partners know they have on ball coverage and start any counts in there.

That said, if my partners as the lead do not start counts, I will (as the T).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It wasn't a camp that strictly adhered to NFHS and NCAA mechanics, then. Which is typical, in my experience.

If you want to be technical, if you attend a Men's NCAA camp, if you count from the lead position, you will stand out like a sore thumb. It is Women’s officials that seem to want to bring that craziness to other levels.

Peace