Finally I have seen one, first touch after....

[mick]

I have often tried to envision 9-9-1 the way we have often morphed the play.

Rule 9

SECTION 9 BACKCOURT

ART. 1 . . .

A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team
control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by

the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

BV, I was Trail and backing up as Team A had frontcourt possession and the passed ball was loose and bouncing toward the division line.

A2 touched the pass. [Ball still bouncing toward backcourt.]
A2 chased down the ball to save the violation. [I'm now on the division line.]

[Ball bounced in frontcourt then 12" over the division line (but did not touch backcourt).]

A2, chasing the ball, reached the ball and with his right hand batted the ball toward the frontcourt, and the ball landed on barely 1/2 of the division line and bounced into the frontcourt.

[Note: Defender B had slipped to the floor and was out of the action, so A2 was all alone on this play]

A2's momentum toward the backcourt forced athletic A2 [never in the backcourt] to tightrope, about 6 steps, a line less than 2 " on the frontcourt side, and parallel to, the division line.

Without having touched the backcourt, A2 recovered the ball.

[Adam]

How did A's coach respond?

BJV last weekend. A1, at the division line but still in his FC, grabs it, realizes he was going to lose the battle with Newton's first law of motion, so throws it off the defender's leg and it bounces into the BC. A1 then recovered legally in his BC. I'm C right in front of Bs coach, and he's audibly impressed.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How did A's coach respond?

BJV last weekend. A1, at the division line but still in his FC, grabs it, realizes he was going to lose the battle with Newton's first law of motion, so throws it off the defender's leg and it bounces into the BC. A1 then recovered legally in his BC. I'm C right in front of Bs coach, and he's audibly impressed.

I heard some *white noise* from the fans opposite, but didn't even give a look toward the Team A bench.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mick

A2, chasing the ball, reached the ball and with his right hand batted the ball toward the frontcourt, and the ball landed on barely 1/2 of the division line and bounced into the frontcourt.

If the ball touched the division line, then the ball gained backcourt status. If it was touched by next A2, isn't this a backcourt violation? Sounds to me like this is similar to a player dribbling close to, and parallel to, the division line, the ball strikes the division line, and the dribbler, while in the frontcourt, continues to dribble. Isn't this also a backcourt violation?

[mick]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the ball touched the division line, then the ball gained backcourt status. If it was touched by next A2, isn't this a backcourt violation? Sounds to me like this is similar to a player dribbling close to, and parallel to, the division line, the ball strikes the division line, and the dribbler, while in the frontcourt, continues to dribble. Isn't this also a backcourt violation?

I think you are employing 9-1-1.

[mutantducky]

A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team
control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by


So if the ball is in control by A in the backcourt and on a pass the ball lands in the front court. The ball is then fumbled then tipped around. A is the last one to touch it and A2 recovers the ball in the bc. No violation because there hasn't been control?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team
control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by


So if the ball is in control by A in the backcourt and on a pass the ball lands in the front court. The ball is then fumbled then tipped around. A is the last one to touch it and A2 recovers the ball in the bc. No violation because there hasn't been control?

Not correct. Team A is in control the entire time. That's a backcourt violation.

[mutantducky]

? So the control in the backcourt carries over to control in the frontcourt? I guess the whole team that had control last remains in control during a loose ball situation.

What if, instead of a pass from the backcourt it is a throw in from the end/baseline. A1 touches the pass but there is no control and the ball is bouncing around and is tipped into the frontcourt and then by team A into the backcourt. Violation there? Does team control for team A start from the throw in?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

? So the control in the backcourt carries over to control in the frontcourt? I guess the whole team that had control last remains in control during a loose ball situation.

What if, instead of a pass from the backcourt it is a throw in from the end/baseline. A1 touches the pass but there is no control and the ball is bouncing around and is tipped into the frontcourt and then by team A into the backcourt. Violation there? Does team control for team A start from the throw in?

I think that you've got it now. Team control does carry over until the ball becomes dead, the opponent gains control, or it is relinquished with a try for goal going into flight.

Since there is no team control during a throw-in, the situation that you have proposed with one tip/bat after another would not result in a backcourt violation.

BTW the NCAA ruling would be the same (no backcourt violation) even though there is team control during a throw-in as there is a specific exception for a throw-in written into the rules for that level.

[BillyMac]

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations. In both cases team control, a player holding or dribbling the ball, has not yet been established.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

? So the control in the backcourt carries over to control in the frontcourt?

The mistake here is to think that team control has a location. There is no "team control in the backcourt" or "team control in the frontcourt." Team control ends only in the ways Nevada describes.

Team control is one concept; ball and player location another. The backcourt violation rule links the two.

[mutantducky]

Does anything change on this-

So team A throws the ball in from the endline into their backcourt. Pass is caught controlled by A1 thus establishing control. Ball then is fumbled and tipped around. If a player from Team A OR Team B is the last to touch it in the backcourt and tips it into the frontcourt where it is again batted around by Team A or Team B. Ball goes into the backcourt. Team A gets control of the ball- violation?

I'm thinking yes it is a violation in either case. Even if team B touches it last(without control, loose ball) in the backcourt and again touches it again in the frontcourt, it would still be a violation if Team A gets the ball in the backcourt. So even if Team A did not touch the ball in the frontcourt they could still be called for a violation? That would be a really weird play.
If it is, do you call the violation right when Team A touches the ball in the backcourt after it had gone in the front or when they have control of the ball? Example, ball backcourt then frontcourt and then back, B1 knocks it off A1 while in the backcourt. Call it there?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Does anything change on this-

So team A throws the ball in from the endline into their backcourt. Pass is caught controlled by A1 thus establishing control. Ball then is fumbled and tipped around. If a player from Team A OR Team B is the last to touch it in the backcourt and tips it into the frontcourt where it is again batted around by Team A or Team B. Ball goes into the backcourt. Team A gets control of the ball- violation?

I'm thinking yes it is a violation in either case. Even if team B touches it last(without control, loose ball) in the backcourt and again touches it again in the frontcourt, it would still be a violation if Team A gets the ball in the backcourt. So even if Team A did not touch the ball in the frontcourt they could still be called for a violation? That would be a really weird play.
If it is, do you call the violation right when Team A touches the ball in the backcourt after it had gone in the front or when they have control of the ball? Example, ball backcourt then frontcourt and then back, B1 knocks it off A1 while in the backcourt. Call it there?

No. If B is last to touch the ball before it goes into the BC, it's not a violation.

[mutantducky]

Ok- so the key is if B is the last to touch. A can touch it in the FC but as long as B touches it last before it goes back into the BC then it isn't a violation. kind of like the case book play, where on a looseball in A's fc b slaps it off A1's leg and A recovers it, violation because A1 last to touch it in the FC.

[williebfree]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Does anything change on this-

PART A: team A throws the ball in from the endline into their backcourt. Pass is caught controlled by A1 thus establishing control.

PART B: Ball is fumbled and tipped around into the frontcourt where it is again batted around by Team A or Team B. Ball then returns to the backcourt. Team A gets control of the ball- violation?
.

PART A: TEAM CONTROL EXISTS FOR TEAM A.

PART B: YES, IF TEAM A was LAST TO TOUCH in FC; NO if TEAM B was LAST TO TOUCH in FC