Elbowing

[Spence]

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Spence

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

As a new official I've leaned towards the "maybe not" but I'm not sure what I would have to see to call the violation in this scenario.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Spence

As a new official I've leaned towards the "maybe not" but I'm not sure what I would have to see to call the violation in this scenario.

Spence:

I am glad you didn't think I was being flip in my previous response. I should have added that it is a HTBT type of play. As someone who has taught new basketball officials (MTD, Jr., is a second year official) I would actually hope that a new official would be more prone to put air in his whistle than not put air in his whistle.

The biggest problem with new officials is to call anything, because it is all new too them and there is so much information to process.

MTD, Sr.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Spence:

I am glad you didn't think I was being flip in my previous response. I should have added that it is a HTBT type of play. As someone who has taught new basketball officials (MTD, Jr., is a second year official) I would actually hope that a new official would be more prone to put air in his whistle than not put air in his whistle.

The biggest problem with new officials is to call anything, because it is all new too them and there is so much information to process.

MTD, Sr.

The hesitancy on the whistle is due to the apparent vague-ness of the rule. How do you define it? Like the old joke about not knowing how to define porn but knowing it when you see it?

Do I take into account how close the defender is? How many times the elbow swings?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Maybe, maybe not.

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

It's the message board equivalent of a weak whistle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

It's the message board equivalent of a weak whistle.

Our former interpreter used to say, "The best bad call, is a strong bad call".

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Our former interpreter used to say, "The best bad call, is a strong bad call".

How about these, made on a JV game last night:

1. ball bouncing toward the sideline, and a girl gets bumped out of bounds (you know where this is going). She jumps back in with BOTH feet and grabs the ball. TWEET! "She was out of bounds!" Going the other way.

2. Girl is fouled at the end of the half, and the lane is cleared for her FT attempts. One of the opponents wanders out on the court behind her, drinking from her water bottle, on her way to the locker room a little early. TWEET! "Lane violation! She gets another shot!" Oh yeah, I should mention that the shooter had not released the attempt yet.

These calls made by a 2nd year guy, who has a reputation for being unteachable. He did say that he learned something when we told him that call #1 was incorrect.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

[iref4him]

This is what I have been told what to do -

1) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and no contact --> elbow violation

2) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and there is contact --> player control foul

3) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and misses --> technical foul. Then it is the descretion and intent to determine if you consider it flagrant or intentional. Flagrant, the player is disqualified. Intentional, the player stays.

4) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and makes contact --> flagrant foul. Flagrant, the player is disqualified.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by iref4him

This is what I have been told what to do -

1) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and no contact --> elbow violation

2) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and there is contact --> player control foul

3) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and misses --> technical foul. Then it is the descretion and intent to determine if you consider it flagrant or intentional. Flagrant, the player is disqualified. Intentional, the player stays.

4) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and makes contact --> flagrant foul. Flagrant, the player is disqualified.

iref4him:

The information that you have been given is a very good summation of how to apply this rule, with one small exception. Item (3) is not different from Item (4) except that in (4) contact was made, therefore the TF foul in (3) must be flagrant. It can not be just an intentional TF (by definition there is not such animal anymore in NFHS) even thought the flagrant TF could be intentional. And remember that the flagrant foul in (4) is a personal foul if it occurs while the ball is live.

MTD. Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It can not be just an intentional TF (by definition there is not such animal anymore in NFHS) .

4-19-3: ART. 3 . . . An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

4-19-3: ART. 3 . . . An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul

Bob:

I know, what the rule book says but since we no longer shoot one free throws for TF's that are neither intentional nor flagrant what is the difference between a non-intentional, non-flagrant TF and an intentional, non-flagrant TF under NFHS rules.

MTD, Sr.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Spence

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Contact doesn't matter. If you deem the swinging excessive, call the violation.