Help!

jc147119 · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:13am

What would you have if A1 goes up for a dunk and prior to leaving the floor B1 establishes LGP. A1 crashes into B1 for a player control foul. A1 continues on the dunk as he is already in motion and gets fouled hard by B2. Ball does not get dunked but hits the rim, bounces up and continues back down through the goal for the basket. I understand that if it had been a blocking foul first and then a charging foul we would have a false double foul BUT is the same true when the player control occurs first? Once the player control foul is called does the ball become dead straight away or is it still live as the attempt as began (which is normally the case). I do not see how could I have a false double foul in this situation but rather just a PC foul. Your help please!

Zoochy · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:24am

Only PC. No continuation here. If A1 still has control of the ball, then the ball is dead when Team A commits a foul. If you feel that the foul by B2 was Intentional, then you can call a 'dead ball, Intentional/Technical foul.

Scrapper1 · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc147119

Once the player control foul is called does the ball become dead straight away

Rule 6 -- Live Ball and Dead Ball. Read it. Learn it. Love it. So many basic --and important -- questions are answered in this rule.

JugglingReferee · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc147119

What would you have if A1 goes up for a dunk and prior to leaving the floor B1 establishes LGP. A1 crashes into B1 for a player control foul. A1 continues on the dunk as he is already in motion and gets fouled hard by B2. Ball does not get dunked but hits the rim, bounces up and continues back down through the goal for the basket. I understand that if it had been a blocking foul first and then a charging foul we would have a false double foul BUT is the same true when the player control occurs first? Once the player control foul is called does the ball become dead straight away or is it still live as the attempt as began (which is normally the case). I do not see how could I have a false double foul in this situation but rather just a PC foul. Your help please!

No basket; just a PC foul here. I don't put blame on the athletes for this play and its dead ball stuff such as dunking a dead ball or dead ball contact by B2 unless it was intentional or flagrant.

Yes, once the PC is called, the ball is dead.

The wierd foul call on this play are likely the dreaded blarge (two officials signalling different fouls). I could see calling a multiple foul IF B1 was late trying to obtain LGP AND B2 hit A1 completely separate of B1. Both of these fouls risk injury to A1 and need to be curtailed. Having said that, I have never seen that scenario.

referee99 · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Rule 6 -- Live Ball and Dead Ball. Read it. Learn it. Love it.

How's about we print up a couple of hundred bumper stickers with this on it. It could go viral!

jc147119 · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:46am

What about this????

HS Rule Book

Page 32 4-19-1 NOTE

ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.
NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter

Scrapper1 · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99

How's about we print up a couple of hundred bumper stickers with this on it. It could go viral!

The problem is, you could probably say the same thing (Read it. Learn it. Love it.) about all the rules. Maybe we could make a different bumper sticker for each rule and officials could just buy the stickers for the rules that they liked best. I'd buy Rule 4 and Rule 6.

Can't somebody Photoshop a prototype for us?

JugglingReferee · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The problem is, you could probably say the same thing (Read it. Learn it. Love it.) about all the rules. Maybe we could make a different bumper sticker for each rule and officials could just buy the stickers for the rules that they liked best. I'd buy Rule 4 and Rule 6.

Can't somebody Photoshop a prototype for us?

How about GIMPing a sample?

mbyron · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

How about GIMPing a sample?

Eh. Same difference. 'Photoshop' is now like 'Kleenex' and 'Xerox' -- brand names functioning as genera.

JugglingReferee · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

Eh. Same difference. 'Photoshop' is now like 'Kleenex' and 'Xerox' -- brand names functioning as genera.

Very true. But I just like to say the word GIMP.

bob jenkins · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc147119

What about this????

HS Rule Book

Page 32 4-19-1 NOTE

ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.
NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter

That assumes that there is no "complicating factor" (or whatever the specific wording is).

There's a case play very similar to your play.

just another ref · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2009, 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc147119

What about this????

HS Rule Book

Page 32 4-19-1 NOTE

ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.
NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter

If you're still talking about the OP, there is no airborne shooter.

BillyMac · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 07, 2009, 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

'Photoshop' is now like 'Kleenex' and 'Xerox', brand names functioning as genera.

Jello, Pyrex, Teflon, Scotch Tape, Freon, ...

Before I retired from teaching, I always had a box of facial tissues on my desk. Students would always ask, "Mr. BillyMac, may I borrow a Kleenex?". I would always have to reply, "No, but you can take one a keep it. I don't want it back".