Bench Technical vs. Player Technical

[whistlesblow]

Thanks guys -

Near as I can tell the player in question had not been 'jawing' or otherwise getting up in anybody's face and GU players are not demonstrative like some - certainly their coach does not yell at refs like many do. He was a bit incredulous about his three previous offensive fouls, but hardly in an overblown manner, more just like a kid getting a little frustrated.

Bob - The offending shout or heckle or whatever it was seems certainly to have come from a fan behind the bench, not anyone on the bench, which is why it seems odd that the official went right after this player. Maybe JRut is right that he was being too vocal, but I have certainly seen a lot worse from players and coaches. Throw in that Cameron is a loud and confusing place and it just seemed strange that the official following the play could be so certain it was this kid. Maybe I am wrong that the tech is usually on the bench in general, but I don't recall seeing a seated player T'd up.

If anything a bench foul or a warning to the fan seemed appropriate. Absent seeing the guy call him out or being 100% certain, it is hard to see how you can effectively take a guy out of the game who has worked so hard to get there (and in this case appears to have done nothing warranting a tech).

I am of the school that says officials are not the ones people came to see and their impact on the game should be kept to a necessary minimum - maintaining flow and keeping the rules, etc. This situation seems to have gone beyond that, with an official becoming a significant factor. Just my humble opinion.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The usual "bench technical" is assessed against the bench collectively? I'd question that assumption.

The protocol is to blow the whistle and report the foul. I didn't see the game -- did the officials do something different?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

If anything a bench foul

What is this "bench foul" of which you speak? If you can identify the offender, you give it to the individual.

I'm sure the supervisor is asking the right questions and that the official will be dealt with if he did this incorreclty. Since none of us were there, the rest is just speculation.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

I am of the school that says officials are not the ones people came to see and their impact on the game should be kept to a necessary minimum - maintaining flow and keeping the rules, etc. This situation seems to have gone beyond that, with an official becoming a significant factor. Just my humble opinion.

Bench personel are not allowed to disrespectfully address officials. If the comment from the bench warrents a foul then call it. You don't need to get into some type of psychlogical thinking to make the decision.

[whistlesblow]

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul? This situation was a team follower (or someone else in the seats behind the bench). The official was not looking that way and there are easy remedies in place when you don't know who said something - i.e. admin tech. It seems like overreaching to jeopardize a player's participation iin the game based on conjecture that it was him - these guys work hard and deserve better from the officials, in my opinion. If there was no admin remedy that would be one thing, but there is and I guess I thought it should have been used in this case.

Originally Posted by LDUB

Bench personel are not allowed to disrespectfully address officials. If the comment from the bench warrents a foul then call it. You don't need to get into some type of psychlogical thinking to make the decision.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul? This situation was a team follower (or someone else in the seats behind the bench). The official was not looking that way and there are easy remedies in place when you don't know who said something - i.e. admin tech. It seems like overreaching to jeopardize a player's participation iin the game based on conjecture that it was him - these guys work hard and deserve better from the officials, in my opinion. If there was no admin remedy that would be one thing, but there is and I guess I thought it should have been used in this case.

Did you have a conversation with the officials that none of us are aware of? If you did not talk to the officials, you do not know why they called the T.

And you do not have to look at someone to recognize who said something, if you recognize their voice or you know a particular person was making the comments. And if no one wants to get penalized, then shut the hell up. Then you will not have to worry about anyone assuming who said something.

The problem is you are obviously listening to media people who know nothing about rules or officiating procedures (but try to act like they do) instead of hearing from the officials that actually made the call.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul?

Please explain what a Class A tech is? I can't find it in the rule book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Please explain what a Class A tech is? I can't find it in the rule book.

An unsporting T under NCAA Men's Rules, which I believe this situation called for.

Peace

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

An unsporting T under NCAA Men's Rules, which I believe this situation called for.

Peace

Really? What did the kid say?

And then, lah me, to lie about it and claim that he didn't say anything!

Oh, any idea why Singler wasn't charged with a flagrant foul (rather than an intentional) when he took a swing at Wattad ?

JM

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Oh, any idea why Singler wasn't charged with a flagrant foul (rather than an intentional) when he took a swing at Wattad ?

I did not see what happened but punching is a flagrant foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Really? What did the kid say?

If he gave the player on the bench a T, that is a Class B Technical. That is what the situation calls for if one is called.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Fair enough, but when you are talking about a Class A tech on someone on the bench, player, coach or other personnel, don't you have to be pretty dang sure who made the offensive comment before you assign it to an individual and not make it an administrative foul? This situation was a team follower (or someone else in the seats behind the bench). The official was not looking that way and there are easy remedies in place when you don't know who said something - i.e. admin tech.

There is no "easy remedy" for this. If it was a team follower who made the remark, then it should have been an admin T. If it was a Team Member, then it should have been a Class A tech on the team member. You can't say, "it was someone on the team, but I don't know who, so I'll make it an admin T." The official apparently knew who it was, or made a mistake. Shrug. It happens.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There is no "easy remedy" for this. If it was a team follower who made the remark, then it should have been an admin T. If it was a Team Member, then it should have been a Class A tech on the team member. You can't say, "it was someone on the team, but I don't know who, so I'll make it an admin T." The official apparently knew who it was, or made a mistake. Shrug. It happens.

How about this, Bob?
10-5-1 Penalty:
"An assessed technical foul that cannot be charged to an individual shall be charged to the head coach (ex. Art. 1.f)."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How about this, Bob?
10-5-1 Penalty:
"An assessed technical foul that cannot be charged to an individual shall be charged to the head coach (ex. Art. 1.f)."

That seems (to me) to apply to Players and Subs -- not to Bench Personnel, who are covered under 10-5-2, and only when the Player / Sub cannot get a T (using the example given of a DQ player), not when the offender is not known.

Your later case play cite seems more on target, but it's still not an Admin T as the OP seems to want.

All that said, I work far more NCAAW than NCAAM, so my knowledge of some of the finer points of the rules is a little suspect for NCAAM.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by whistlesblow

Thanks guys -

Near as I can tell the player in question had not been 'jawing' or otherwise getting up in anybody's face and GU players are not demonstrative like some - certainly their coach does not yell at refs like many do. He was a bit incredulous about his three previous offensive fouls, but hardly in an overblown manner, more just like a kid getting a little frustrated.

Bob - The offending shout or heckle or whatever it was seems certainly to have come from a fan behind the bench, not anyone on the bench, which is why it seems odd that the official went right after this player. Maybe JRut is right that he was being too vocal, but I have certainly seen a lot worse from players and coaches. Throw in that Cameron is a loud and confusing place and it just seemed strange that the official following the play could be so certain it was this kid. Maybe I am wrong that the tech is usually on the bench in general, but I don't recall seeing a seated player T'd up.

If anything a bench foul or a warning to the fan seemed appropriate. Absent seeing the guy call him out or being 100% certain, it is hard to see how you can effectively take a guy out of the game who has worked so hard to get there (and in this case appears to have done nothing warranting a tech).

I am of the school that says officials are not the ones people came to see and their impact on the game should be kept to a necessary minimum - maintaining flow and keeping the rules, etc. This situation seems to have gone beyond that, with an official becoming a significant factor. Just my humble opinion.

Some thoughts:

I get the impression that you're a Georgetown fan. Could it be?

There's no such thing as a "bench foul." There is no "more usual bench technical assessed against the bench collectively." You assess it to the person who opened his mouth.

It makes no difference if the player "has worked so hard to get there." When you're on the bench, you'd be smart to keep your mouth shut.

John Cahill has worked several Final Fours and National Championship games. He was there, we were not.

[whistlesblow]

BBallRef -

I am a fan of the game and of the players, who I think deserve better than this. And in this case, it seems the player certainly followed your advice and kept his mouth shut, but he got T'd up anyone - hmmmmm.

Look at it this way - today the Duke student newspaper retracted an earlier story alleging that the player in fact said something and changed their story to the more widely reported 'someone behind the bench'. They could hardly be called GU fans, no? I think we all know CIS is a wild place to experience with 9000 home fans yelling persistently, which just exagerrates the oddness of the official claiming it was this one opposing player who was out of line vocally. As JRut pointed out, perhaps he knew the voice, which is interesting because since being made available for interviews, numerous DC media have reported on the distinct quality of this kids baritone. Makes it even harder to believe he mistook it.

There is a lot of good info and I thank everyone for their insight. I won't bother discussing Class A and B since I think that has been clarified now by others and glad to hear that their is a protocol in place for when you aren't certain who said what , as was sited in the example given later in the thread.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Some thoughts:

I get the impression that you're a Georgetown fan. Could it be?

There's no such thing as a "bench foul." There is no "more usual bench technical assessed against the bench collectively." You assess it to the person who opened his mouth.

It makes no difference if the player "has worked so hard to get there." When you're on the bench, you'd be smart to keep your mouth shut.

John Cahill has worked several Final Fours and National Championship games. He was there, we were not.