What Not to Do/Say!

MOofficial · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2009, 03:24pm

In Missouri there is. I am now looking at the sheet they hand out at our annual meeting and it reads as follows:

The Board of Directors adopted the following Policy, March, 1997, to address protest.....

1. Within the procedures established...
2. If the coach still believes there has been a misapplication of a rule by a contest official, the coach shall then file a formal verbal protest with the game official who will then notify the opposing coach immediately of the protest.
3. Followign the notification of the protest, the coach shall be allowed approximately ten minutes to use his/her NF rules book. If the head coach does not have personal copies of teh above mentioned materials at teh game site or the specific rule reference or case book plays cannot be located within the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically be disallowed adn teh game shall continue POI.
4. All protest shall be resolved at the contest site before any further game action occurs.
5......
6. The MSHSAA Board of Directors/ and or Staff shall not review contest protests

B. Process
1.Once the head coach has filed a formal verbal protest with teh game officials, they shall notify the opposing head coach of the protest adn the playing field, court, mat, etc. shall be cleared of all participants and they shall report to their respective team bench areas.
2. The head coach shall then be allowed approx. ten minutes to locate specific rules........The game officials shall also confer among themselves durign the period to address teh claim of the coach as to the potential rule missapplication
3. If the head coach is able to produce rule evidence from teh above mentioned sources to support the claim of a missapplication of a game rule, the officials shall correct the error as provided in the contest rules and the contest shall proceed from the POI. If the head coach cannot produce the evidence , the protest shall be disallowed and the contest shall continue from the POI.

With all that being said. I've never seen it happen either in Basketball nor Softball.

Adam · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2009, 03:26pm

Like I said; stupid.

jdmara · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2009, 05:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOofficial

In Missouri there is. I am now looking at the sheet they hand out at our annual meeting and it reads as follows:

The Board of Directors adopted the following Policy, March, 1997, to address protest.....

1. Within the procedures established...
2. If the coach still believes there has been a misapplication of a rule by a contest official, the coach shall then file a formal verbal protest with the game official who will then notify the opposing coach immediately of the protest.
3. Followign the notification of the protest, the coach shall be allowed approximately ten minutes to use his/her NF rules book. If the head coach does not have personal copies of teh above mentioned materials at teh game site or the specific rule reference or case book plays cannot be located within the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically be disallowed adn teh game shall continue POI.
4. All protest shall be resolved at the contest site before any further game action occurs.
5......
6. The MSHSAA Board of Directors/ and or Staff shall not review contest protests

B. Process
1.Once the head coach has filed a formal verbal protest with teh game officials, they shall notify the opposing head coach of the protest adn the playing field, court, mat, etc. shall be cleared of all participants and they shall report to their respective team bench areas.
2. The head coach shall then be allowed approx. ten minutes to locate specific rules........The game officials shall also confer among themselves durign the period to address teh claim of the coach as to the potential rule missapplication
3. If the head coach is able to produce rule evidence from teh above mentioned sources to support the claim of a missapplication of a game rule, the officials shall correct the error as provided in the contest rules and the contest shall proceed from the POI. If the head coach cannot produce the evidence , the protest shall be disallowed and the contest shall continue from the POI.

With all that being said. I've never seen it happen either in Basketball nor Softball.

I'm simply shocked...Question for you though MO, what is the correctable time frame in which a rule can be corrected by protest?

Failure to award a merited free throw or Awarding an unmerited free throw falls under 2-10. So does the protest has to occur before the provisions provided in 2-10?

-Josh

CMHCoachNRef · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2009, 10:14pm

OHBBRef,
You stated, " I can guarantee that if a coach pulls out a book and says anything about something being do(ne) wrong during a game that is the an automatic E-ticket."

To each his own. If I get a call completely wrong -- by rule not by judgment -- and a coach gets the book out and confirms it.....Sorry, I am going to eat my crow with the feathers. I am NOT going to punish the coach's team -- AGAIN (typically, the reason the coach looks in the first place is because I made a mistake against his team) -- for my mistake.

We can all make mistakes. Sometimes, we have to be man enough to admit it. Just my humble opinion.

Adam · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 07, 2009, 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

We can all make mistakes. Sometimes, we have to be man enough to admit it. Just my humble opinion.

OH and I have had our disagreements, but this isn't one of them. It has nothing to do with eating crow or being man enough to admit your mistake.

For better or worse, the game goes better when the official has final authority. It goes smoother, it goes faster, and it's just better.

"Coach, I'll be happy to discuss it another time, but you'll need to put the book away for the night."

CMHCoachNRef · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 08, 2009, 07:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

OH and I have had our disagreements, but this isn't one of them. It has nothing to do with eating crow or being man enough to admit your mistake.

For better or worse, the game goes better when the official has final authority. It goes smoother, it goes faster, and it's just better.

"Coach, I'll be happy to discuss it another time, but you'll need to put the book away for the night."

First of all, I am impressed that the coach has the rule book. Secondly, I have no problem with the official having the final authority, but the part that makes the game go "smoother", "faster" and "just better" is when the official actually KNOWS the rules. Thirdly, can you state the rule or case that REQUIRES the coach to put the rule book away?

I have coached basketball for about as long as some of the oldest dinosaurs have been reffing. I got my referee license years and years ago because several officials felt that I was one of the few coaches who actually knew nearly all of the rules. I can tell you that I never expect a referee to know every single nuance of every rule and case (there would be no reason for this forum if we all did). At the same time, if we are wrong, we are wrong.

Adam · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 08, 2009, 08:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

First of all, I am impressed that the coach has the rule book. Secondly, I have no problem with the official having the final authority, but the part that makes the game go "smoother", "faster" and "just better" is when the official actually KNOWS the rules. Thirdly, can you state the rule or case that REQUIRES the coach to put the rule book away?

The rule that says the coach cannot attempt to influence a call.

Rich · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 08, 2009, 12:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

First of all, I am impressed that the coach has the rule book. Secondly, I have no problem with the official having the final authority, but the part that makes the game go "smoother", "faster" and "just better" is when the official actually KNOWS the rules. Thirdly, can you state the rule or case that REQUIRES the coach to put the rule book away?

I have coached basketball for about as long as some of the oldest dinosaurs have been reffing. I got my referee license years and years ago because several officials felt that I was one of the few coaches who actually knew nearly all of the rules. I can tell you that I never expect a referee to know every single nuance of every rule and case (there would be no reason for this forum if we all did). At the same time, if we are wrong, we are wrong.

Not all coaches are you.

Other coaches (and I would say a majority) would use the book to try to intimidate the official or work up the crowd. Or, in a case I had, read the rule in the wrong way to try to get a ruling to go in the coach's favor (it was pregame, he contended a visiting player dunked "by definition" when the kid dropped the ball from above into the basket -- then he threw the rulebook on the table on top of the book I was checking and I was too stunned to recognize this right away as the technical or flagrant technical it should've been).

If I lived in Missouri, I would tolerate the process. It's part of the gig. In my current games, I would pick myself off the floor after seeing a coach with a rule book and kindly ask him to put it away, telling him I'd talk to him about anything, but he wasn't going to use a prop as part of the process. Matter of fact, I wouldn't talk to him until the book was put away and if it wasn't put away in a timely manner, we'd be shooting free throws.

OHBBREF · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 08, 2009, 08:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

To each his own. If I get a call completely wrong -- by rule not by judgment -- and a coach gets the book out and confirms it.....Sorry, I am going to eat my crow with the feathers. I am NOT going to punish the coach's team -- AGAIN (typically, the reason the coach looks in the first place is because I made a mistake against his team) -- for my mistake.

If a coach calls me over in a calm manner and says Ref your enforcement/interpretation is wrong, we can have a short discussion about it. If he references something from the book (without getting it out), - I'll listen and I will discuss it with my partners and if we agree he is right we will change it.
However, if the book comes out and he wants us to look in it - it is trying to influence an officals decison, period, and also showing up the officials, and they need to look at that section of the book also.

A couple of years ago I was the R on a game and the U2 (rookie) made a call and the coach pulled out a book, and started to try to show my partner where he was wrong about a call.
After about 30 seconds I went over removed my partner from the conversation by asking him what the issue was, I then asked the coach what the issue was - the coach told me and then went back into the book.
I told the coach that no mater what he found in that book he needs to look up bench technical section about trying to influence an officials decision - while he was waiting for the game to end from the locker room, - he now has 30 seconds to leave the gym. By the way the coach was wrong.

The administration appealed to the state regarding the ejection, in the meeting the state said clearly the coach was wrong in the manner he went about doing it, and the ejection was proper.

OHBBREF · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 08, 2009, 12:10pm

CMHCoachNRef
I agree with you about if I get a call wrong - by rule not judgement that one should fix it and eat your crow.

however - If the coach knows you're wrong he will know why should be able to make their case w/o the book. If not getting the book out isn't going to help.

I encourage coaches to become rules savay, know them and call us out when in the rare occasions we kick one, but do it in a professional manner.

Think of it this way, If I make a call in a game and the coach says "you are wrong", I pull out a rule book and show him in the rule book where he is actually wrong. (I have this dream often)

Would that be appropriate behavior for me as an official?
Would I not be showing disrespect to the coach by showing it to him in the book in front of the whole place?

I can see a letter of reprimand going in my file for that one!

The coach isn't supposed to be the expert on the floor, so how much worse is it actually for a coach to pull out a book (even calmly) and try to show up the official with the rule book in hand?

Mind you rarely would this conversation be done in a totally calm manner, also think about how many ways we as officals on this board can read a rule and come up with something different, now we are going to add the coaches interpretation into it.

Book on bench bad thing!
Book in ref's pocket bad thing!

deecee · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 08, 2009, 12:21pm

OHBBREF -- A dream I have on a regular basis is when a coach asks, "How can you call that?"

I always want to respond with.

"Coach how could you keep running the same play over again when the defense has it figured out."

or

"Coach if your full court press was meant to make this a fast pace layup after layup affair then I think you have succeeded in creating a juggernaut."

or

"Coach, are you really going to put HIM/HER in NOW?????"

But you get the point. Like Seinfeld, I have always wanted to heckle a coach while I was officiating.