Good T/Or Time Out?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree that they don't want us to nitpick for a toe across the line. One foot out or one step out, should be a quick word. But we shouldn't have several reminders either.
Obviously out, EVEN IF JUST COACHING, has been directed to be a T. That has been made very clear.

And, for the record, I've T'ed and tossed a coach for simply coaching their team within the coaching box. (It was the coach's second T of the game, and he was standing in the box coaching his team at the time, after already receiving one reminder.) I also agree it should not be several reminders.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If he is only a step or so out of the box, I would grant the time-out request. If he was WAY out of the box, say 8-10 feet , I would assess a technical foul and give him a time-out.

Ok, then how far is "a step or so"? Does it depend on how tall the coach is? Is a shorter coach allowed the same distance as the taller coach's step? How much is "or so"? 1/2 a step? If "8-10 feet" is too far, where is the line between too far and just enough?

I know, they are silly questions. But my point is you are allowing official's discretion within the context of the rule and POE. I happen to think giving the T for that TO request is too strict within the intent of the rule. But, if the request is made as follows, "Hey, Blind Guy, give me a TO!", then I would agree it's an easy T.

[Rich]

The removal of posts in this thread was not necessary, Bob.

While Nevada and I clearly disagree here, there were items of value in BOTH our posts.

Walking the coach over to the box at this stage of the game, IMO, is the right thing to do for the game. One minute left, 6 point game, coach is not doing what anyone in their right mind would consider unsportsmanlike.

Nevada disagrees. Fine. We got a little jab in at each other. Fine.

Right or wrong, I do not think this kind of call at this point is good for the game. So what that the coach was warned early in the game. That was an eternity ago. This is a good time for a quick escort to the box, a quick reminder, and on with the game.

I'm OK with people that disagree, but quoting the book or the POE (as I said before) is not adequate for me. I'd like some opinion/analysis beyond that.

[OHBBREF]

Nevada - the formal warning came in last year in the NCAA with the coaches being out of the box.

And the point of Emphasis is from 2005 - 06
in 2006 -07 that POE was
Coaching Box – In states that authorize the use of the optional coaching box, the head coach is the only person on the bench that is permitted to stand and must remain in the coaching box. All other bench personnel must remain seated at all times except when a team member is reporting to the scorer's table, during time-outs or intermissions, and to spontaneously react to a play.

That said, Yes I want to keep my coach in the Box all game all day, but if the coach is not riled up why do I want to rile hime up?
this is a dead ball - he is coaching his kids, and I can get him back in his box before we start play without doing anything that will turn a mild mannered coach into Bob Knight on Steroids, would that not be the better thing for the game?

REF: Coach - do you need a time out?
COACH: Huh?
REF: You're out on the floor I thought you wanted a time out?
COACH: NO.
REF: Then help me out coach, you need to get back in the coaches box so we can play the game.

If it persists or if it delays the game then you warn him so everyone knows that if it happens again what the consequenses are.


This is a common sence solution to a problem.
IMO if more officials would grow some hangy down things and deal with the truly horrid and deserving behavior of coaches appropriately we wouldn't be bickering over a POE about keeping a coach in his cage - I mean box!

[Adam]

There may be a formal warning in the NCAA, but there is not in high school. That needs to be made clear.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There may be a formal warning in the NCAA, but there is not in high school. That needs to be made clear.

Agreed, but even without a formal warning, you can accomplish the same thing w/o Whacking the coach here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Agreed, but even without a formal warning, you can accomplish the same thing w/o Whacking the coach here.

Maybe, but the coach had already been warned/reminded previously. I'm not saying this should automatically be a T because of it, but warnings aren't really having the desired effect.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Maybe, but the coach had already been warned/reminded previously. I'm not saying this should automatically be a T because of it, but warnings aren't really having the desired effect.

Some have the philosophy of the "three Ws -- Wave, Warn, Whack." I'd view the earlier admonition as more of the "wave" function -- a reminder to stay in the box, not a "warning."

(Note that the philosophy doesn't say that all steps must be followed. Certainly a coach can act such that the first or first two steps are skipped. Also, a reminder in the first Q, followed by good behavior for 2 Qs can lead to another "wave" in the 4th Q.)

[Rich]

I also want to make it clear I am not saying Nevada is not a real official or less of one. I respect that he knows what he's talking about and I try to stay within the guidelines myself, but there are times (and this is a good example) where I don't think you can say something is either black or white.

However, I wouldn't want to go into that situation without knowing what the POEs, rules, interpretations, etc. are. I want to know what I'm about to sidestep, if you want to call it that. I may even use that to get the coach back -- "You know the state/NFHS wants a technical here, so you better work with me so you don't earn one."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Nevada - the formal warning came in last year in the NCAA with the coaches being out of the box.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There may be a formal warning in the NCAA, but there is not in high school. That needs to be made clear.

Of course, I'm aware of both of those points.

Also, I should note that there have been quite a few good comments in this thread (some of which were deleted) as frequently happens when we get a little disagreement and spirited debate going. The main thing is that there has been a failure by officials to deal with the coaches. One of the main causes has been the lack of support from the ADs and schools. In places where assignments depend upon such people the don't bite the hand that feeds you phrase comes into play, and, unfortunately, not for the better of the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course, I'm aware of both of those points.

Also, I should note that there have been quite a few good comments in this thread (some of which were deleted) as frequently happens when we get a little disagreement and spirited debate going. The main thing is that there has been a failure by officials to deal with the coaches. One of the main causes has been the lack of support from the ADs and schools. In places where assignments depend upon such people the don't bite the hand that feeds you phrase comes into play, and, unfortunately, not for the better of the game.

Good point.

If I had one assignor who assigned all the games and he said, "F--- it, whack em," I'd whack 'em by the boatload. But it's a little more complicated than that for most of us and games are directly and indirectly controlled by the schools and conferences.