Nevada, I hope I don't get into a pissing match with you, but I do lean towards BITS on this one. First, the OP situation was during a dead ball, so I'm more willing to give a little leeway on this one, especially since the coach was not directing any comments towards the officials. Second, why would we give the coach any leeway or warning? There is nothing in the POE that gives us the opportunity to give the coach a warning or reminder, however, every rules interpreter I know, from HS up to college, recommends talking the coach back into the box first before eventually giving the T. I believe that the was procedure recommended in the NFHS pre-season newsletter that came out that same year. Why is that? Could it be because the intent of the rule is not to penalize "strictly" any accidental infringement, but to penalize obvious attempts to circumvent the box to gain an advantage?

Just curious as to how you handle the following, given your stance on the POE: Late in the game, A has a throw-in on their end of the floor. Before the ball is handed to A1 for the throw-in, B's coach is trying to get the official's attention to request a TO. The crowd is so loud, none of the officials hear the coach, so the coach tries to get closer to the closest official to get their attention. When the official finally hears the coach, the coach is well out of the box in front of the table. Is this a T? Why, or why not?

Barney Fife would T him up.

You won't. I'll just state that you are yet another example of why this was a POE for two consecutive seasons. The NFHS flat-out says that officials aren't enforcing the rule.
Eight to ten feet out of the box is a blatant violation. It has to be penalized. The warning or reminder is for when a coach is a step or two out.
Look at the directive from the NCAA on this. They went so far as to institute a formal warning this year. Check out the requirements for the warning. If college coaches with their jobs and livelihoods on the line can stay in the boxes, then so can HS coaches, even when they are excited.


Is the coach gaining an advantage for his team by being out of the box? Does he have more ability to get the attention of the officials for his time-out request? The NFHS has stated that is one of the main reasons not to let the coaches be out of the box.

Perhaps he should learn to communicate his desire to his players on the court and one of them can run over right next to an official and make the request.
There is also written language from the NFHS that coaches have to learn that their requests may not always be seen or heard and that it is their responsibility to communicate clearly and get the attention of the officials.

While I don't disagree, I think the main reason was I heard many officials use the phrase, "If the coach ain't talking to me, I'm not worried about what they're doing, especially if they're coaching their team." So this wasn't an occasion step or two or ten out of the box, this was an all-game occurance. I believe that was what they were addressing. But since they allow us to give a warning or reminder, this tells me we have discretion before calling the T, and it is not automatic.

Agreed.

But, you didn't answer my question. ;) What would you do in that particular situation, and why?

I agree that they don't want us to nitpick for a toe across the line. One foot out or one step out, should be a quick word. But we shouldn't have several reminders either.
Obviously out, EVEN IF JUST COACHING, has been directed to be a T. That has been made very clear.

If he is only a step or so out of the box, I would grant the time-out request. If he was WAY out of the box, say 8-10 feet ;), I would assess a technical foul and give him a time-out.

I haven't seen anyone acknowledge that the coach had already been warned earlier that game. Live ball, easy T. Dead ball, I might talk to him but wouldn't think twice about the T since he'd already been warned.

Furthermore, looks like it worked in that the coach stayed in his little box the next game.

And, for the record, I've T'ed and tossed a coach for simply coaching their team within the coaching box. (It was the coach's second T of the game, and he was standing in the box coaching his team at the time, after already receiving one reminder.) I also agree it should not be several reminders.

Ok, then how far is "a step or so"? Does it depend on how tall the coach is? Is a shorter coach allowed the same distance as the taller coach's step? How much is "or so"? 1/2 a step? If "8-10 feet" is too far, where is the line between too far and just enough?

I know, they are silly questions. But my point is you are allowing official's discretion within the context of the rule and POE. I happen to think giving the T for that TO request is too strict within the intent of the rule. But, if the request is made as follows, "Hey, Blind Guy, give me a TO!", then I would agree it's an easy T. ;)

The removal of posts in this thread was not necessary, Bob.

While Nevada and I clearly disagree here, there were items of value in BOTH our posts.

Walking the coach over to the box at this stage of the game, IMO, is the right thing to do for the game. One minute left, 6 point game, coach is not doing what anyone in their right mind would consider unsportsmanlike.

Nevada disagrees. Fine. We got a little jab in at each other. Fine.

Right or wrong, I do not think this kind of call at this point is good for the game. So what that the coach was warned early in the game. That was an eternity ago. This is a good time for a quick escort to the box, a quick reminder, and on with the game.

I'm OK with people that disagree, but quoting the book or the POE (as I said before) is not adequate for me. I'd like some opinion/analysis beyond that.

See, I find this to be a flawed analogy. HS coaches aren't always the most experienced people we run into. Sometimes we have to remind the coaches. Sometimes they get a bit excited at the end of the game. It doesn't give them a free pass, but I also don't think it betters the game, our standing with the teams and conferences we work for, and with the coaches and players by just whacking first and saying they should've known better later.

Nevada - the formal warning came in last year in the NCAA with the coaches being out of the box.

And the point of Emphasis is from 2005 - 06
in 2006 -07 that POE was
Coaching Box – In states that authorize the use of the optional coaching box, the head coach is the only person on the bench that is permitted to stand and must remain in the coaching box. All other bench personnel must remain seated at all times except when a team member is reporting to the scorer's table, during time-outs or intermissions, and to spontaneously react to a play.

That said, Yes I want to keep my coach in the Box all game all day, but if the coach is not riled up why do I want to rile hime up?
this is a dead ball - he is coaching his kids, and I can get him back in his box before we start play without doing anything that will turn a mild mannered coach into Bob Knight on Steroids, would that not be the better thing for the game?

REF: Coach - do you need a time out?
COACH: Huh?
REF: You're out on the floor I thought you wanted a time out?
COACH: NO.
REF: Then help me out coach, you need to get back in the coaches box so we can play the game.

If it persists or if it delays the game then you warn him so everyone knows that if it happens again what the consequenses are.


This is a common sence solution to a problem.
IMO if more officials would grow some hangy down things and deal with the truly horrid and deserving behavior of coaches appropriately we wouldn't be bickering over a POE about keeping a coach in his cage - I mean box!

There may be a formal warning in the NCAA, but there is not in high school. That needs to be made clear.

Agreed, but even without a formal warning, you can accomplish the same thing w/o Whacking the coach here.

Maybe, but the coach had already been warned/reminded previously. I'm not saying this should automatically be a T because of it, but warnings aren't really having the desired effect.

Of course, I'm aware of both of those points.

Also, I should note that there have been quite a few good comments in this thread (some of which were deleted) as frequently happens when we get a little disagreement and spirited debate going. The main thing is that there has been a failure by officials to deal with the coaches. One of the main causes has been the lack of support from the ADs and schools. In places where assignments depend upon such people the don't bite the hand that feeds you phrase comes into play, and, unfortunately, not for the better of the game.

I also want to make it clear I am not saying Nevada is not a real official or less of one. I respect that he knows what he's talking about and I try to stay within the guidelines myself, but there are times (and this is a good example) where I don't think you can say something is either black or white.

However, I wouldn't want to go into that situation without knowing what the POEs, rules, interpretations, etc. are. I want to know what I'm about to sidestep, if you want to call it that. I may even use that to get the coach back -- "You know the state/NFHS wants a technical here, so you better work with me so you don't earn one."