Good T/Or Time Out?
 

The other night I was officiating a boys varsity game, late in the game with about a minute left I had a foul on the visiting team (at this point the it was a 6 point game) The foul was on a successful layup, it was a no doubter. As I went to the table to report the foul I look over and the visiting coach is barking instructions to his players from the court, and when I say court I mean he is standing 8-10 feet on the court. Earlier in the game he was a foot out of the box talking to his players and we mentioned it to him that he needed to stay in his box. When I saw him that far on the court my instincts took over and I gave him a T. After the fact the only other thing I thought maybe I could have done was given him a timeout, but should I? What would you guys have done.

That's a long way to be out on the court. I'd probably have a T here as well.

The coaching box has been a POE in a couple of the past few years.

On what basis would you give him a time out?

If he's not given you any trouble all game, and he's just coaching his kids, I'd think about a second reminder. If he jumps back into his box, problem solved. If he doesn't, then the T is just that much more justified.

OTOH, if he's been a jerk, the hard part would be not smiling while you whack him. :D

You know, like in kindergarten.

Now you've done it. I can't stop giggling. :D

:rolleyes:

Why is it so difficult for people to enforce this rule? :confused:

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior.
...
D. Coaching box: The committee wants coaches to stay in the coaching box. There is a constant problem when coaches wander. It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team. The coach can also influence play by being out on the court.
The rule is black-and-white, but it has not been dealt with properly. Most officials have not enforced the rule. The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is "coaching the team" has no bearing on rule enforcement. The coach who continually abuses the coaching-box rule risks having his or her governing body remove it completely. The official who doesn't enforce it runs the risk of not following what the governing body wants enforced.
Once the coaching box has been removed because of a technical foul, all related rules restrictions must apply. There's no way to get the box back after the privilege has been lost.
Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that permit a head coach to rise in certain situations (time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement.
Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding their coaches do so. When violated, the official must enforce the rule with a technical foul.

In PA the coaching Box has only been in use for the past 3 seasons so we are still getting adjusted, although it isn't a rule per say, when we didn't have a coaches box the only reason coaches could stand were to call a time-out, I guess I was stretching it back to that and trying to be preventive in a close game. I did T him and I feel that I did the right thing I just wanted everyones opinion. Some of my colleagues said they would have given him a Time-Out. Just wanted others opinions. Had him a few days later (hate when I have the same school close together) He stayed in the box the whole night but all over one of my partners. He ended up getting T's up again in that game.

You are certainly welcome to T the coach for this in your game. And you certainly have clear rules backing.

Just like you do for calling three seconds.

I note this POE lists Coaching Box under Sporting Behavior. I see no sporting behavior issues in the OP. The POE mentions a coach influencing play by being out on the court. In the OP the ball is dead. The POE discusses coaches who continually abuse the coaching box. In the OP the coach has been out of the box twice in 31 minutes, once by only a foot.

Am I looking for justification for not calling a T here? Not really. Just pointing out that the OP is hardly the poster child for a must have T.

Obviously, I disagree or I wouldn't have posted what I did.

With all due respect to Nevadaref, I would take the course of action laid out by BITS.

Fixed it for ya. ;)

I agree if he's been a jerk it is an easy call but if not, what is wrong with walking over to him and walking him back to the box as you remind him about the coaching box. I've seen it done and it works. Then further action is easy because he knows you're in control on the court.

I agree. If the coach was being an a$$ most of the game, and since he'd been warned previously then I'd whack him. Or if he came onto the court to give you a piece of his mind over a call you just made, ditto. But if he's just coaching his kids (maybe since it's a close game the crowd is loud and it's tough to hear in the gym), then I remind him he needs to stay in the coaching box. If you T him here, then you pretty much have to call everything else by the book: 3 seconds, defender breaks the throw-in plane with a fingertip, etc...

You'd absolutely have just cause, but I think common sense has to come into play. You're penalizing his kids in a close game, for probably nothing more than a momentary slip of the mind that had no bearing on you or the game.

With all due respect: We officiate in the real world, not inside a book.

Game: Ontario Provincial Bronze Medal game back in 2003 I think it was.

I'm there watching with some buddies and late in the game, the covering official passes on calling this T when a coach is 8-10 feet out onto the court. He claimed that he didn't see the coach. Of course, had that been true, the official would have had to be blind. Everyone had their own opinion on the play: opposing team's fans were yelling for a T. Same team fans were yelling at the opposing team's fans to s.u. Other coach was not happy, iirc. Officials in the stands were stunned.

Years later, the official admitted that he didn't want to affect the game (4th quarter in the bronze medal game). He took quite a bit of ribbing for his decision, and ultimately, it has been pretty much agreed that you gotta call this T. One foot onto the court is ok. But 10 feet? Being nice most of the game doesn't earn a coach a free pass late in the game.

Good call. I've seen what happens when the call wasn't made. :)

Nevada, I hope I don't get into a pissing match with you, but I do lean towards BITS on this one. First, the OP situation was during a dead ball, so I'm more willing to give a little leeway on this one, especially since the coach was not directing any comments towards the officials. Second, why would we give the coach any leeway or warning? There is nothing in the POE that gives us the opportunity to give the coach a warning or reminder, however, every rules interpreter I know, from HS up to college, recommends talking the coach back into the box first before eventually giving the T. I believe that the was procedure recommended in the NFHS pre-season newsletter that came out that same year. Why is that? Could it be because the intent of the rule is not to penalize "strictly" any accidental infringement, but to penalize obvious attempts to circumvent the box to gain an advantage?

Just curious as to how you handle the following, given your stance on the POE: Late in the game, A has a throw-in on their end of the floor. Before the ball is handed to A1 for the throw-in, B's coach is trying to get the official's attention to request a TO. The crowd is so loud, none of the officials hear the coach, so the coach tries to get closer to the closest official to get their attention. When the official finally hears the coach, the coach is well out of the box in front of the table. Is this a T? Why, or why not?

Barney Fife would T him up.

You won't. I'll just state that you are yet another example of why this was a POE for two consecutive seasons. The NFHS flat-out says that officials aren't enforcing the rule.
Eight to ten feet out of the box is a blatant violation. It has to be penalized. The warning or reminder is for when a coach is a step or two out.
Look at the directive from the NCAA on this. They went so far as to institute a formal warning this year. Check out the requirements for the warning. If college coaches with their jobs and livelihoods on the line can stay in the boxes, then so can HS coaches, even when they are excited.


Is the coach gaining an advantage for his team by being out of the box? Does he have more ability to get the attention of the officials for his time-out request? The NFHS has stated that is one of the main reasons not to let the coaches be out of the box.

Perhaps he should learn to communicate his desire to his players on the court and one of them can run over right next to an official and make the request.
There is also written language from the NFHS that coaches have to learn that their requests may not always be seen or heard and that it is their responsibility to communicate clearly and get the attention of the officials.

While I don't disagree, I think the main reason was I heard many officials use the phrase, "If the coach ain't talking to me, I'm not worried about what they're doing, especially if they're coaching their team." So this wasn't an occasion step or two or ten out of the box, this was an all-game occurance. I believe that was what they were addressing. But since they allow us to give a warning or reminder, this tells me we have discretion before calling the T, and it is not automatic.

Agreed.

But, you didn't answer my question. ;) What would you do in that particular situation, and why?

I agree that they don't want us to nitpick for a toe across the line. One foot out or one step out, should be a quick word. But we shouldn't have several reminders either.
Obviously out, EVEN IF JUST COACHING, has been directed to be a T. That has been made very clear.

If he is only a step or so out of the box, I would grant the time-out request. If he was WAY out of the box, say 8-10 feet ;), I would assess a technical foul and give him a time-out.

I haven't seen anyone acknowledge that the coach had already been warned earlier that game. Live ball, easy T. Dead ball, I might talk to him but wouldn't think twice about the T since he'd already been warned.

Furthermore, looks like it worked in that the coach stayed in his little box the next game.

And, for the record, I've T'ed and tossed a coach for simply coaching their team within the coaching box. (It was the coach's second T of the game, and he was standing in the box coaching his team at the time, after already receiving one reminder.) I also agree it should not be several reminders.

Ok, then how far is "a step or so"? Does it depend on how tall the coach is? Is a shorter coach allowed the same distance as the taller coach's step? How much is "or so"? 1/2 a step? If "8-10 feet" is too far, where is the line between too far and just enough?

I know, they are silly questions. But my point is you are allowing official's discretion within the context of the rule and POE. I happen to think giving the T for that TO request is too strict within the intent of the rule. But, if the request is made as follows, "Hey, Blind Guy, give me a TO!", then I would agree it's an easy T. ;)

The removal of posts in this thread was not necessary, Bob.

While Nevada and I clearly disagree here, there were items of value in BOTH our posts.

Walking the coach over to the box at this stage of the game, IMO, is the right thing to do for the game. One minute left, 6 point game, coach is not doing what anyone in their right mind would consider unsportsmanlike.

Nevada disagrees. Fine. We got a little jab in at each other. Fine.

Right or wrong, I do not think this kind of call at this point is good for the game. So what that the coach was warned early in the game. That was an eternity ago. This is a good time for a quick escort to the box, a quick reminder, and on with the game.

I'm OK with people that disagree, but quoting the book or the POE (as I said before) is not adequate for me. I'd like some opinion/analysis beyond that.

See, I find this to be a flawed analogy. HS coaches aren't always the most experienced people we run into. Sometimes we have to remind the coaches. Sometimes they get a bit excited at the end of the game. It doesn't give them a free pass, but I also don't think it betters the game, our standing with the teams and conferences we work for, and with the coaches and players by just whacking first and saying they should've known better later.

Nevada - the formal warning came in last year in the NCAA with the coaches being out of the box.

And the point of Emphasis is from 2005 - 06
in 2006 -07 that POE was
Coaching Box – In states that authorize the use of the optional coaching box, the head coach is the only person on the bench that is permitted to stand and must remain in the coaching box. All other bench personnel must remain seated at all times except when a team member is reporting to the scorer's table, during time-outs or intermissions, and to spontaneously react to a play.

That said, Yes I want to keep my coach in the Box all game all day, but if the coach is not riled up why do I want to rile hime up?
this is a dead ball - he is coaching his kids, and I can get him back in his box before we start play without doing anything that will turn a mild mannered coach into Bob Knight on Steroids, would that not be the better thing for the game?

REF: Coach - do you need a time out?
COACH: Huh?
REF: You're out on the floor I thought you wanted a time out?
COACH: NO.
REF: Then help me out coach, you need to get back in the coaches box so we can play the game.

If it persists or if it delays the game then you warn him so everyone knows that if it happens again what the consequenses are.


This is a common sence solution to a problem.
IMO if more officials would grow some hangy down things and deal with the truly horrid and deserving behavior of coaches appropriately we wouldn't be bickering over a POE about keeping a coach in his cage - I mean box!

There may be a formal warning in the NCAA, but there is not in high school. That needs to be made clear.

Agreed, but even without a formal warning, you can accomplish the same thing w/o Whacking the coach here.

Maybe, but the coach had already been warned/reminded previously. I'm not saying this should automatically be a T because of it, but warnings aren't really having the desired effect.

Of course, I'm aware of both of those points.

Also, I should note that there have been quite a few good comments in this thread (some of which were deleted) as frequently happens when we get a little disagreement and spirited debate going. The main thing is that there has been a failure by officials to deal with the coaches. One of the main causes has been the lack of support from the ADs and schools. In places where assignments depend upon such people the don't bite the hand that feeds you phrase comes into play, and, unfortunately, not for the better of the game.

I also want to make it clear I am not saying Nevada is not a real official or less of one. I respect that he knows what he's talking about and I try to stay within the guidelines myself, but there are times (and this is a good example) where I don't think you can say something is either black or white.

However, I wouldn't want to go into that situation without knowing what the POEs, rules, interpretations, etc. are. I want to know what I'm about to sidestep, if you want to call it that. I may even use that to get the coach back -- "You know the state/NFHS wants a technical here, so you better work with me so you don't earn one."

Good point.

If I had one assignor who assigned all the games and he said, "F--- it, whack em," I'd whack 'em by the boatload. But it's a little more complicated than that for most of us and games are directly and indirectly controlled by the schools and conferences.

Some have the philosophy of the "three Ws -- Wave, Warn, Whack." I'd view the earlier admonition as more of the "wave" function -- a reminder to stay in the box, not a "warning."

(Note that the philosophy doesn't say that all steps must be followed. Certainly a coach can act such that the first or first two steps are skipped. Also, a reminder in the first Q, followed by good behavior for 2 Qs can lead to another "wave" in the 4th Q.)

Exactly. Always listen to Bob.

(Right, Nevada? :D)

I must have heard the 3Ws differently. When it came to the coaching box I thought that the NFHS was saying, "Watch, Whack, and Wave good-bye." :D

I wanted to throw one more thing out for discussion earlier, but didn't have the text of it handy. I finally found it. It was buried in a rather obscure NFHS publication: "Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."

It's interesting that the POE reminds us that the rule is "black and white". You and I know that in basketball, the only thing that is actually black and white are our uniforms. Especially when it comes to dealing with coaches.

Even NevadaRef, the who so vocally preached the Gospel Of The POE on this, concedes that he wouldn't T a HC "If he is only a step or so out of the box". In other words, it's not black and white.

As is so often the case, after all is said and done, we discover that the real question is "what common sense guidelines should we follow on enforcing this 'black and while' rule?"

"Rule Number One: Obey ALL rules!!"
 

Barney: The last big buy I made was my mom's and dad's anniversary present.
Andy: What did you get them?
Barney: A septic tank.
Andy: For their anniversary?
Barney: Yeah, oh they're really hard to buy for. Besides it was something they could use. They were really thrilled. Two tons of concrete, all steel reinforced.
Andy: You're a fine son, Barn.
Barney: I try.

I will say that if my local area would come out and make it known to all the coaches that the officials would issue Ts for one foot outside of the box, then I would certainly have no problem with that, in fact I would be http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...images/wee.gif and be giving those Ts. However, the majority of the people around me just aren't that hardcore. I know that I am at one end of the spectrum and constantly striving to get more people to move my direction.

And that's good for the forum. Thanks, Nevada! :)

Seems that I'm needed at the D1 level
 

I'll call him and let him know I've got just the man for the job. Merry Christmas. :)