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-   -   Clock doesn't start question (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/50345-clock-doesnt-start-question.html)

Adam Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff (Post 558335)
I cited cases from the NCAA Case book to support the rule. NFHS and NCAA - the wording of the rule is the same.
I don't have a Fed case book handy to know if this play is cited.
Again, I need to see where the NFHS published this ruling from Mary. Two different governing bodies.

JRutledge Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 558347)
Again, I need to see where the NFHS published this ruling from Mary. Two different governing bodies.
And Mary happens to run both organizations. I would suspect that she is not going to advocate two completely different interpretations when the language for both is exactly the same. I could be totally wrong, but that is a guess I am willing to make right now.

Peace

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 558352)
And Mary happens to run both organizations.
Well, she doesn't run either of them, but I know what you mean. However, I think that Mary is the Rules Editor only for the women's side of NCAA, not the men's. I think Ed Bilik is the men's rules editor/interpreter.

socalreff Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 558355)
Well, she doesn't run either of them, but I know what you mean. However, I think that Mary is the Rules Editor only for the women's side of NCAA, not the men's. I think Ed Bilik is the men's rules editor/interpreter.
She is the National Coordinator of Officials. Debbie Williamson is the rules editor.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff (Post 558357)
She is the National Coordinator of Officials.
Of the women's side. And even there, she (apparently) doesn't issue the approved rulings. So what was the point of quoting an NCAA AR (which was issued by Ms. Williamson and/or Mr. Bilik) in response to a NFHS question when appealing to Ms. Struckoff? :confused:

socalreff Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 558362)
Of the women's side. And even there, she (apparently) doesn't issue the approved rulings. So what was the point of quoting an NCAA AR (which was issued by Ms. Williamson and/or Mr. Bilik) in response to a NFHS question when appealing to Ms. Struckoff? :confused:
Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?

Adam Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff (Post 558370)
Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?
Me, in my head: "One thousand one." Game over.

I always have a count at the end.

Kelvin green Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:19pm
I am with Jrut on this one.

1) I had definite knowledge that the clock did not start (it still read 8:00)
2) based on the scenario I know one second should have went off the clock. Ball was caught in bounds... (dribbled) and fouled.


Of course I always check the clock starting, and normally count somehow until I see the clock start to get it right

JRutledge Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff (Post 558370)
Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?
Based on what I am reading here, the basket should count. ;)

Peace

JRutledge Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green (Post 558373)
Of course I always check the clock starting, and normally count somehow until I see the clock start to get it right
I do this too.

Peace

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 558362)
Of the women's side. And even there, she (apparently) doesn't issue the approved rulings. So what was the point of quoting an NCAA AR (which was issued by Ms. Williamson and/or Mr. Bilik) in response to a NFHS question when appealing to Ms. Struckoff? :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff (Post 558370)
Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?
So. . . just so we're clear, your reference earlier to Ms. Struckoff's ruling from the NFHS was just B.S.? And now, you're just going to change the subject to deflect attention from that. Is that pretty much it?

And to answer your question, my practice is the same as Kelvin and JRut. Especially in last second situations, you must make sure the clock starts; and if it doesn't, then you count.

OHBBREF Mon Dec 15, 2008 02:47pm
done arguing about who is in charge of What?
 
First off - on every in bound play, toss, or any time the ball is to become live and the clock should start, one or more persons on a crew should be checking to see that the clock starts, and in those games where used that the shot clock starts when proper possession is gained.
If the either clock does not start, you need to blow the play dead or get some sort of count going NOW.

There are no do overs so in the original post they are wrong. If you let the play go on what ever happend counts you can not go back and do it over and you can not wipe out actions that took place durring that time period.

The basic tenant here is that there are means by which to establish, that time ran off the clock and that a definate amount of time ran off the clock.
Maybe not the correct amount but a definate amount, and the definate amount of time has to come off the clock.

The other issue is that you need pre-game these situation big time and you discuss them during the game, if you have timing issues and at the end of the half and end of the game so that you are aware and prepared to handle the situation when it arrises - then is is a quick he says and he says and you adjust the clock with out a lot of problem.

This is a Crew issue and you need to be on top of it.

TravelinMan Mon Dec 15, 2008 03:06pm
I would apply Padgetts rule: "yell at the time keeper for not starting the clock; if the timekeeper forgets to stop the clock, don't say a word" :D

jdmara Mon Dec 15, 2008 03:30pm
First of all, I really don't have a beef with either stance here but there is my two measly cents on the issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 558323)
ART.1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.

How is that defined?

ART.2...If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.

Anybody know what "other official information" means??
I would believe that "other official information" could be such thing as a shot close for those states that use them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff (Post 558331)
The officials are not permitted to leave 4
seconds on the game clock and repeat the initial the throw-in by A1.
(Rule 5-11.1)
Sounds to me like you can leave the clock at 4 seconds and continue from the POI. You just cannot leave the clock and have a do-over

----

In a situation where it is in the final few seconds, someone better have a count going. This weekend I had three (attempted) buzzer beaters. You bet your last dollar that I had a count going on all three. With 8 minutes left..ummm...I'm not worried about it. At least several tenths of a second roll off the close at every stoppage. Frankly, I don't have the ability to stop this from occurring unless I blow my whistle and immediately look at the clock. I have other things to do immediately after I blow my whistle, like watch the continuing action. The clock is taken care of with a quick glance (within a second or two) but it's not the first thing I do.

-Josh

just another ref Mon Dec 15, 2008 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 558338)
The rulebook says that you can determine the time by either a count or other information. If the ball was put in play, the clock was supposed to start. If the ball handler took a couple of dribbles, more time came off the clock. In this situation the foul was called and 8:00 was still on the clock. I have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I do not need to actually see the clock run or not run to certain of that fact. And unless someone can show me where it says, "You must watch the clock or you do not have definite knowledge" then I am going to say I have definite knowledge time should have run off the clock or did not start properly. I did not say take 5 seconds or 10 seconds. That would be a stretch. But anyone officiating that tends to watch the clock knows that a second should come off the clock when the ball is touched after a throw in. And if there was a dribble or two, I am certain at least a second has gone off the clock and I could not call a foul with just 8:00 on the clock just because I did not physically see the clock run.

Now at the end of the day do what you feel is best. I just feel no one will say a word and no one can dispute (but on the internet) that a second should not have run off if not more time in this example. I do not care what others say, this is not a committee decision and I also do not feel the intent of the rule was to require that official only had to "see" the clock run or not. That is why they wrote the rule the way they did and gave us other markers to make these decisions. I am sure not everyone is going to agree what they meant by definite. The dictionary definition fits what I would do clearly.

Peace
If all this happens at the start of the quarter, nobody cares. But what if this situation takes place with 3 seconds left in a close game? Do you take off 1 second or 2?


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