Clock doesn't start question
 

Didn't happen in my game, but happened in my area. Beginning of second period, A1 inbounds to A2 in the team's FC. A2 takes a few dribbles and is fouled by B1. The officials then realize the clock hadn't started and still reads 8:00. The official didn't have any visual count going since it was in the FC (no knowledge of the time tha elapsed). The officials ultimately decided to take the foul away and inbound the ball again with 8:00 on the clock as if the play had never happened. How would you handle this one?

No I would not handle it that way. Just take a few seconds off the clock, but keep the foul. They might not have had a perfect way to figure out the time, but they had to have some idea. I do not see how they just take the foul off the board. It still happened.

Peace

By rule, no time adjustment can be made in this case. Leave the clock alone and proceed with the foul penalty.

I do not know if "no time adjustment" makes any sense. Time had to go off the clock in some capacity. They know the ball was in play. They know a foul took place. If it is only a second or two seconds, that is better than saying "we have no idea." They have some idea; they cannot be excessive with it.

Peace

I didn't say it made sense. I said "by rule."

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......only when he has definite information relative to the time involved.

Is an adjustment routinely made in this situation by officials? Yes

Is it strictly legal? No

You know the clock was supposed to start. I did not say run off a minute, I said run off a second or two (unless you know it was longer). And you know a second should have run off the clock. If there were several dribbles, I would run off more. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I would not run off any more than a couple of seconds when clearly that is what should have happen. Watch the clock and you do not have to worry about these kinds of things in the first place.

Peace

Definite knowledge that "a second or two" has elapsed? Sounds like a contradiction in terms.

I do not see a problem with running a second off the clock if you know the clock was supposed to stop. You are splitting hairs in my opinion over what definite knowledge is. Even a visible count is an estimate, you may or may not be accurate if you use that alone. Some official's counts are fast and some official's counts are slow. And I would have definite knowledge that at least a couple of seconds ran off the clock if the ball was put into play and a player dribbled a few times. More time than that might be a little more of a problem. I have no problem suggesting I have definite knowledge at that point. I do not see where in the rulebook or casebook it says how you come to that conclusion. I just know that I am not going to give a foul and not run at the very least one second off the clock in this situation. I know the clock was supposed to start. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out in my opinion. But if you do not want to be in this situation, watch the clock to start and stop no matter where you are on the court. Then you will not have to worry about if the clock started properly.

Peace

5-10-2: ......an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

It is a given that in the OP there is no count by the officials, and you have not described anything which sounded remotely like official information.

So you are saying that the ball being thrown in and dribbled is not any information what so ever to know to take a second or two off the clock? You know the clock was at least to have a tick go off the clock just after the ball was put into play. We are not talking about a minute or 30 seconds here. We are talking about a very small measure of time where it is obvious that should have run off. And we had enough time for the ball to be put in play with a couple of dribbles (said by the OP) and have a foul. I do not need a count alone to know a couple of seconds ran off the clock. Not when someone dribbled a couple of times and then the defense fouls them. At the very least we should have 7:59 on the clock. That is why the rule in my opinion says "other information." We are not making a decision totally in a vacuum. We are making a decision based on some solid information that a second or two ran off the clock. The rule does not say we had to physically see the clock not start (or else). And if we did see the clock not physically stop, the time we take off is going to be an estimate (with or without a count) anyway.

Peace

You're absolutely right that some time had to come off the clock. However, by rule, you can't make an adjustment if you "have some idea". You need definite knowledge.

Can't say I like it in this particular situation, but that's what we're stuck with.

(I didn't read the whole thread. Didn't mean to pile on.)

The rule book says it's not. I'd go with the rule book and I think that's what Nevada is trying to say.

The funny thing is I did not say I was making an adjustment based on an assumption. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have started. Then I have definite knowledge a dribble or two were taken. I have definite knowledge the time on the clock would not be 8:00 on the clock if run properly. I have definite knowledge that at the very least the clock should read 7:59 and not 8:00. I guess this is where I will have to disagree with some people's interpretation of the word "definite." I do not know how all those things can happen and not one second go off the clock. Some time definitely elapsed even in the best case scenario.

Peace

I can certainly see how you could come to that conclusion. I know others on this forum have made the same argument.

If you counted 5-seconds in the backcourt and then after a few more seconds in the frontcourt, you realize that the clock never started, you have definite knowledge that at least 5 seconds should have run off the clock. I have to admit that makes some sense to me.

But others, Jurassic was one, say that you have to have definite knowledge of exactly how much time should have run off in order to make any adjustment. I have to say that I think I fall into this category.

BktBallRef and I would take off the five seconds. It's simple. You take off what you know. You don't alter what you don't. So you also wouldn't leave time on the clock for which you have definite knowledge to remove.

In this case we don't know exactly how many seconds the game action took, nor do we have a count of any kind at all. Therefore, BY RULE, we can't alter the clock in any way.

FWIW, I'm with Nevada on this one. Take off what you know even if it's not the entire amount.

You need to read the above again. They had definite info relative to the time involved. The clock did not start properly. That is definite info. If you need confirmation, just email it to Mary Struckoff. The rule does not say that you need to know exactly how much time elapsed.

Okay, you know the clock should have started. How much time should have come off? At least a full second? Do you even know that for sure?

No.

Are you that inept that you can't replay the play in your head and have a very good estimate of the time elapsed?
This exact play was brought to the National Fed. and the interp. was to take off the time based on your best estimate. Mary Struckoff was adamant that the language in the rule specifically states that you only need definite knowledge that there was an errror. You may correct the clock if you know it was not started properly.
Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?

Where is this published?

{Jepordy theme song plays}

Would the rules support at least one second being taken off?

ART.1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.

How is that defined?

ART.2...If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.

Anybody know what "other official information" means??

[QUOTE=Ch1town;558323]ART.1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.
[QUOTE]
Gosh, this seems to contradict socal's version of Mary Struckoff's comments. Of course, maybe I'm just too inept to see it.

A.R. 131. With 10 seconds remaining on the game clock in the first half,
A1 makes a throw-in to A2 (game clock not started—official
timer’s mistake). A2 dribbles into the front court and misses
the try. B1 recovers the rebound and dribbles the full length of
the playing court. As the player passes the bench, the coach of
Team A notices that the game clock has not started and calls
the mistake to the attention of the official timer, who starts the
game clock. With one second left on the game clock in the half,
A2 fouls B1. The bonus is in effect. Time expires before the official
timer can stop the game clock.
RULING: The referee cannot correct this official timer’s mistake unless
he or she knows relatively how much time had elapsed while the
game clock was stopped. The referee shall conduct a re-enactment of
the sequential occurrence of the play to determine that relative time.
To assist the referee, information may be attained from the official
timer who should have informed the official of the mistake. When
the referee determines that there is time remaining, the referee shall
put the determined time on the game clock. A2 shall be assessed with
a personal foul and play shall be resumed at the point where the ball
was located when play was stopped to correct the timer’s mistake.
In this case, B1 shall be awarded the entitled free throw(s) for A2’s
personal foul and play shall be resumed from that point with the corrected
time on the game clock. A correction is only permitted when
it falls within the prescribed time frame limit. When it is determined
that there is no time left on the game clock, the game is over and the
personal foul is not assessed unless it is flagrant or intentional.

A.R. 136. With 4 seconds remaining on the game clock, A1 makes a
throw-in to A2. The game clock does not start when the throwin
is touched by A2. The ball is passed twice, a shot is taken
and the rebound is deflected out of bounds by B1. Prior to
placing the ball at the disposal of A1 for a throw-in, the official
recognizes that there are 4 seconds on the game clock indicating
that the game clock was not properly started on the previous
throw-in.
RULING: When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because
of failure to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall
be corrected only when the referee has definite information relative
to the time involved. The officials have definite information that the
game clock did not start. The officials shall confer with each other and/or check with
the official timer to determine the correct time, if any time remains,
to be placed on the game clock. By rule, the decision must be made
relative to the time involved. The officials are not permitted to leave 4
seconds on the game clock and repeat the initial the throw-in by A1.
(Rule 5-11.1)

So this question was brought to the NFHS, and Mary Struckoff was so adamant that the FED issued an NCAA Approved Ruling? :confused:

I cited cases from the NCAA Case book to support the rule. NFHS and NCAA - the wording of the rule is the same.
I don't have a Fed case book handy to know if this play is cited.

The rulebook says that you can determine the time by either a count or other information. If the ball was put in play, the clock was supposed to start. If the ball handler took a couple of dribbles, more time came off the clock. In this situation the foul was called and 8:00 was still on the clock. I have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I do not need to actually see the clock run or not run to certain of that fact. And unless someone can show me where it says, "You must watch the clock or you do not have definite knowledge" then I am going to say I have definite knowledge time should have run off the clock or did not start properly. I did not say take 5 seconds or 10 seconds. That would be a stretch. But anyone officiating that tends to watch the clock knows that a second should come off the clock when the ball is touched after a throw in. And if there was a dribble or two, I am certain at least a second has gone off the clock and I could not call a foul with just 8:00 on the clock just because I did not physically see the clock run.

Now at the end of the day do what you feel is best. I just feel no one will say a word and no one can dispute (but on the internet) that a second should not have run off if not more time in this example. I do not care what others say, this is not a committee decision and I also do not feel the intent of the rule was to require that official only had to "see" the clock run or not. That is why they wrote the rule the way they did and gave us other markers to make these decisions. I am sure not everyone is going to agree what they meant by definite. The dictionary definition fits what I would do clearly.

Peace

I do not know about you, but if the ball was touched after a throw-in and a player dribbled a couple of times, at least a second ran off the clock.

Peace

Again, I need to see where the NFHS published this ruling from Mary. Two different governing bodies.

And Mary happens to run both organizations. I would suspect that she is not going to advocate two completely different interpretations when the language for both is exactly the same. I could be totally wrong, but that is a guess I am willing to make right now.

Peace

Well, she doesn't run either of them, but I know what you mean. However, I think that Mary is the Rules Editor only for the women's side of NCAA, not the men's. I think Ed Bilik is the men's rules editor/interpreter.

She is the National Coordinator of Officials. Debbie Williamson is the rules editor.

Of the women's side. And even there, she (apparently) doesn't issue the approved rulings. So what was the point of quoting an NCAA AR (which was issued by Ms. Williamson and/or Mr. Bilik) in response to a NFHS question when appealing to Ms. Struckoff? :confused:

Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?

Me, in my head: "One thousand one." Game over.

I always have a count at the end.

I am with Jrut on this one.

1) I had definite knowledge that the clock did not start (it still read 8:00)
2) based on the scenario I know one second should have went off the clock. Ball was caught in bounds... (dribbled) and fouled.


Of course I always check the clock starting, and normally count somehow until I see the clock start to get it right

Based on what I am reading here, the basket should count. ;)

Peace

I do this too.

Peace

So. . . just so we're clear, your reference earlier to Ms. Struckoff's ruling from the NFHS was just B.S.? And now, you're just going to change the subject to deflect attention from that. Is that pretty much it?

And to answer your question, my practice is the same as Kelvin and JRut. Especially in last second situations, you must make sure the clock starts; and if it doesn't, then you count.

done arguing about who is in charge of What?
 

First off - on every in bound play, toss, or any time the ball is to become live and the clock should start, one or more persons on a crew should be checking to see that the clock starts, and in those games where used that the shot clock starts when proper possession is gained.
If the either clock does not start, you need to blow the play dead or get some sort of count going NOW.

There are no do overs so in the original post they are wrong. If you let the play go on what ever happend counts you can not go back and do it over and you can not wipe out actions that took place durring that time period.

The basic tenant here is that there are means by which to establish, that time ran off the clock and that a definate amount of time ran off the clock.
Maybe not the correct amount but a definate amount, and the definate amount of time has to come off the clock.

The other issue is that you need pre-game these situation big time and you discuss them during the game, if you have timing issues and at the end of the half and end of the game so that you are aware and prepared to handle the situation when it arrises - then is is a quick he says and he says and you adjust the clock with out a lot of problem.

This is a Crew issue and you need to be on top of it.

I would apply Padgetts rule: "yell at the time keeper for not starting the clock; if the timekeeper forgets to stop the clock, don't say a word" :D

First of all, I really don't have a beef with either stance here but there is my two measly cents on the issue...

I would believe that "other official information" could be such thing as a shot close for those states that use them.

Sounds to me like you can leave the clock at 4 seconds and continue from the POI. You just cannot leave the clock and have a do-over

----

In a situation where it is in the final few seconds, someone better have a count going. This weekend I had three (attempted) buzzer beaters. You bet your last dollar that I had a count going on all three. With 8 minutes left..ummm...I'm not worried about it. At least several tenths of a second roll off the close at every stoppage. Frankly, I don't have the ability to stop this from occurring unless I blow my whistle and immediately look at the clock. I have other things to do immediately after I blow my whistle, like watch the continuing action. The clock is taken care of with a quick glance (within a second or two) but it's not the first thing I do.

-Josh

If all this happens at the start of the quarter, nobody cares. But what if this situation takes place with 3 seconds left in a close game? Do you take off 1 second or 2?

Count
 

With three seconds left in a close game - I have a count going, and at least one of my partners has a count going. So if this happens we get together and decide if it is one or two seconds based on the counts we have.

The point is there are going to be timing errors, if you have good clock awareness on the floor your crew will have knowlege of the time that ran of the clock.
That is all it is going to take - The R says, "Coaches the clock didn't start, our count has Two seconds coming off the clock" - while that is happening that your partner is at the table getting the clock reset and telling the timer that they need to put down their cell phone and start paying attention to what they are doing.
And get the ball back in play.

I might if I do a count like I would normally with that kind of time left. I guess that does not mean definite to you, because you say it does not. But I tend to be very aware of these kinds of things anyway.

Peace

You have a count. I have a count. Rut has a count. But the question is what you advise an official to do that did not have a count. It is easy to take a couple of seconds off the clock at the start of a quarter. I'm asking if he would tell these poor unfortunates with no count to take a "second or two" off at the end, when a second or two is a significant percentage of the time left in the game.

Not necessarily!
 

Actually it is a good thing to catch something like this early on in a game or quarter for a couple of reasons;
1) It is a chance to have a little heart to heart with your clock operator about the penalties/bodily harm that you are going to inflict upon them if they ruin your game by screwing up the clock. This could prevent further occurances down the line.
2) This shows everyone in the facility that you are on top of the timing as well as everything else on the floor - so if and when this situation were to occur again during this contest - you have credibility in handling the situation up front. So if you say two seconds or three second ran off the clock, there is less likely to be opposition due to the early handling of the clock.

GET A COUNT - If you didn't have one you better reenact it and come up with something because for the 23:57 you did one great job - but you are going down for screwing up the last 3 seconds of the game because the table fell asleep!

Lets say that you have a good hunch that at least 5 seconds has run off -- now by hunch I mean experience --. Would you

a. not reset AT LEAST 5 seconds
b. reset with taking off the 5 seconds

I would reset at least 5 seconds -- and my belief is closer with Jrut -- I know that time should have run and I know that at least 5 seconds should have been deducted.

I could be 100% wrong and not reset -- or I could be 100% wrong and guess how much time elapsed or I could be 100% right up to a certain point (which in turn would only make me x% wrong which would be less than 100%).

In a standard game it takes between 4-7 seconds to bing the ball up the court (in a non fast break instance) a player will take a little less than 2 dribbles per second in normal non pressed or rush activity. I am not saying I will go by this but if a player inbounds the ball in the back court and walks it up and then dribbles a bit in the front court I would say that between 5-10 seconds have passed. Would I take off 10 -- NO. But I have definite knowledge that AT LEAST 5 seconds should have passed so I would go with something like 5-6. All this is hypothetical of course since I have a back court count at all time as well as closely guarded when necessary, and I would never let the clock not run this long without addressing it.

But why does Definite knowledge only apply to the WHOLE amount and not partial? Seems like we are taking a all or none stance when even some amount of correction would help with perception.

For those who care the NCAAW ruling on this is different from the NCAAM and NFHS.
In the absence of a courtside monitor, the NCAAW are instructed to estimate how much time elapsed during the play and take that off the clock. On the mens side and at the NFHS level the officials are to use definite knowledge, not their best guess.

If there is a courtside monitor, the play can be watched on that and timed with a handheld stopwatch. That is considered other definite information. Also if the timer provides information to the officials that can be considered.

This was an NCAA Ruling, not an NCAA Women's (alone) ruling. The NCAA does not have differences on these kinds of plays to correct obvious mistakes.

Peace

My recollection was that it was published under the WOMEN'S Guidelines last season and therefore doesn't apply to the men's side, but I'm willing to double-check.

Maybe it was posted as something to remind the Women's Officials, but the rules are not different for either NCAA Men’s or NCAA Women's Rules. And NCAA Women's Basketball had a couple of very high profile situations where the clock did not start properly last year (Tennessee-Rutgers, Minnesota-North (or South) Dakota).

Actually the casebook gives a couple of examples of timing errors and they do not make any distinction between the Men's or Women's Rules.

Peace