Can foul be called with 0:00?

[referee99]

Boys Varsity game I saw yesterday. Home team up big 45-25. A few seconds remain in first half A1 (home) inbounds in the back court. A2 receives pass and dribbles towards division line, presumably for a last second heave, but never gets a chance as time expires. As time expires B1 goes for steal and there is contact.

Players go to their benches, but PA announcer says there was a 'foul at the buzzer' and A2 will be shooting 1 and 1. He steps to the line and hits both.

My first question is this: can there be a player shooting one-and-one with the lane cleared and no time on the clock here (NFHS rules)?

If there was a foul that occurred before time expired would the officials not be obligated to put the amount of time remaining back on the clock?

If the foul occurred after time expired would the official not be handling a dead ball foul and ignoring or calling an intentional foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

A few seconds remain in first half A1 inbounds in the back court. A2 receives pass and dribbles towards division line, presumably for a last second heave, but never gets a chance as time expires. As time expires B1 goes for steal and there is contact.

If there was contact before the horn sounded, and if Team A was in the bonus, then A2 will shoot free throws, with no rebounders on the line, before the half ends.

If there was contact after the horn sounded, then the half has ended, unless the official deems the contact to be intentional, or flagrant, in which case an intentional technical, or flagrant technical, foul will be called, any Team A player will shoot the free throws, and then the half will end.

Rule 5 - Scoring and Timing
SECTION 6 BEGINNING, ENDING A QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
ART. 1 . . . Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live.
ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating
time has expired.

Rule 4 Definitions
Section 19 Fouls
ART. 5 A technical foul is:
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul
by an airborne shooter.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

If there was a foul that occurred before time expired would the officials not be obligated to put the amount of time remaining back on the clock?

Only if they had definite knowledge.

Rule 5 - Scoring and Timing
SECTION 10 TIMING MISTAKES
ART. 1 . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or
stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
ART. 2 . If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not
started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

Can foul be called with 0:00?

Yes.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If there was contact before the horn sounded, and if Team A was in the bonus, then A2 will shoot free throws, with no rebounders on the line, before the half ends.

If there was contact after the horn sounded, then the half has ended, unless the official deems the contact to be intentional, or flagrant, in which case an intentional technical, or flagrant technical, foul will be called, any Team A player will shoot the free throws, and then the half will end.

... that if I'm the official:

A) I have illegal contact
B) I put air in the whistle
C) Horn sounds after foul occurs
D) When I look I see 0:00 on clock, but know that the foul occurred prior to horn.

So, I know that a foul occurred before period ended, but I do not have definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock. Ergo I will put no time back on the clock, but will enforce the foul. In the OP that means sending player to the line for one-and-one with lane cleared.

I guess its that 'definite knowledge' clause (seasonal reference?) which allows for the discrepancy -- that the foul had to OCCUR with time remaining, but since the amount of time remaining was unknown to officials it cannot be put back.

This is good...I lerned me sumpin'.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

Ergo

I don't think I've ever seen this word on the Forum before. Have you been hanging around with mbyron, our "Annoying Philosopher Guy", lately?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

I guess its that 'definite knowledge' clause (seasonal reference?) which allows for the discrepancy -- that the foul had to OCCUR with time remaining, but since the amount of time remaining was unknown to officials it cannot be put back..

I have Red Green Color Blindness, so I don't understand this "seasonal" reference. Along those same lines, I can't wait until the inauguration to see what our new president, Mr. O'Bama, looks like. I'm sure that he looks like any fine, Irish, lad, with freckles, and red hair. I finally voted for a winner. I'm a bigot, and I only vote for Irish candidates.

Good reply to my post. Let's look at another option. Blow the whistle for the illegal contact. You, or your partner, look up at the scoreboard to see 0:00:5, which keeps running down until the horn sounds. Reset the clock to 0:00:05, report the personal foul, and let A2 shoot free throws, with rebounders on the lane lines, if Team A is in the bonus. Obviously, the half has not ended yet, you still have 0:00:5 to play. And in a similar situation, if there had been only 0:00:3 on the clock, then players would not have time to take a shot (try), but would only have time to tap the ball after you chop in the time.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have Red Green Color Blindness, so I don't understand this "seasonal" reference. Along those same lines, I can't wait until the inauguration to see what our new president, Mr. O'Bama, looks like. I'm sure that he looks like any fine, Irish, lad, with freckles, and red hair. I finally voted for a winner. I'm a bigot, and I only vote for Irish candidates.

Clause... get it? Claus!

re: irish presidents... 11/22 and prior was an excellent chance to get education about our last freckled redheaded president, what happened to him and how the world really works. I'll just leave it at that.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good reply to my post. Let's look at another option. Blow the whistle for the illegal contact. You, or your partner, look up at the scoreboard to see 0:00:05, which keeps running down until the horn sounds. Reset the clock to 0:00:05, report the personal foul, and let A2 shoot free throws, with rebounders on the lane lines, if Team A is in the bonus. Obviously, the half has not ended yet, you still have 0:00:05 to play. And in a similar situation, if there had been only 0:00:03 on the clock, then players would not have time to take a shot (try), but would only have time to tap the ball in the remaining time.

by 0:00:05 I think you mean 0:00.5. A half a second. And yes the situations you describe all make complete sense. Yesterday I had free-throws with .3 remaining. Was fully aware that we could only have a basket on the rebound if tipped. FT was made, ball inbounded... I get to two on my backcourt count before I had to blow the whistle and end play. Lets just say my table crew for the game was not top notch!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by referee99

Clause... get it? Claus!

re: irish presidents... 11/22 and prior was an excellent chance to get education about our last freckled redheaded president, what happened to him and how the world really works. I'll just leave it at that.




by 0:00:05 I think you mean 0:00.5. A half a second. And yes the situations you describe all make complete sense. Yesterday I had free-throws with .3 remaining. Was fully aware that we could only have a basket on the rebound if tipped. FT was made, ball inbounded... I get to two on my backcourt count before I had to blow the whistle and end play. Lets just say my table crew for the game was not top notch!!

If the ball was caught, you end it there and don't wait for the horn.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

By 0:00:05 I think you mean 0:00.5. A half a second.

Fixed it. Thanks. Good posts from a thirty-five post Forum newbie. And I was just kidding. I got it. Good one. I'm not color blind, but I'm IAABO, and some on this Forum claim that IAABO stands for, "I Am A Blind Official".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

I'll just leave it at that.

Good idea. And I'm not a real bigot, I just play one on television.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the ball was caught, you end it there and don't wait for the horn.

... thought I would give the table crew a second to get it right. I mean this guy was sweating harder than the kids on the floor earlier in the game when he could not reset the clock to 8 minutes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by referee99

This guy was sweating harder than the kids on the floor earlier in the game when he could not reset the clock to 8 minutes.

In bet he wasn't sweating as much as Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. was when he tried to reset the hourglass once. The sand kept sticking in the little hole between the two glass globes. Speaking of which. Where is Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.? Didn't they play any football in Ohio yesterday? I hope that he didn't lock himself in his attic. It must be pretty cold up there.

[Nevadaref]

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 6: Team A is trailing by three points when A2 attempts a three-point try at the end of the game. A2 releases the try and is fouled in the act of shooting. The whistle for the foul is followed immediately by the horn sounding and the clock at 0:00. The try is unsuccessful. RULING: The officials are permitted to put time back on the game clock if there is definite knowledge of the correct time or information relative to the time that elapsed after the whistle blew and before the final horn sounded. If time is put back on the game clock, A2 will attempt three free throws with the lane spaces occupied. If the officials cannot determine the amount of time remaining or determine that there is no time remaining, A2 will attempt three free throws with the lane spaces cleared. (5-10-1; 8-1-3)

[derwil]

If this would have happened in the 4th quarter under the score you previously gave, no free throws would be awarded per rule 10-6 under penalties 1e (page 66 in the NFHS book).