Leaving the court--Tech Foul?

[Skarecrow]

Team A, 44....Team B, 40....2 minutes in the game..Sophomore Girls...Team A substitutes two players. I watch one head to the bench, while the other left at half court division line into the stands to retrieve something from Dad, and then down to the floor and around to the baseline, and then to the bench. Tech? Teaching moment? No call? I let it go, and nobody cared, but I don't think that is the right call....I let it go because of the quality of play and the "learning curve" nature of the game.....Did I goof?

[truerookie]

Let it go!

[derwil]

Once the players leave the confines of the court, they are considered bench personnel. So far as I know, there are no restrictions on bench personnel movement other that standing up while play is on the court. I would probably ask the coach to let her know the correct substitution procedures and to exit the court towards the bench so that there is not a "delay of game" warning posted to her team. A"T" is unwarrented as this was not a disruption to the game by bench personnel.

Just my opinion

[Adam]

Originally Posted by derwil

Once the players leave the confines of the court, they are considered bench personnel. So far as I know, there are no restrictions on bench personnel movement other that standing up while play is on the court. I would probably ask the coach to let her know the correct substitution procedures and to exit the court towards the bench so that there is not a "delay of game" warning posted to her team. A"T" is unwarrented as this was not a disruption to the game by bench personnel.

Just my opinion

How you gonna justify that one, partner?

My two bits: There's nothing to do here. Let it go, the only rule broken is that a member of the bench left the bench to get something. Yeah, it's technically a violation, but it's frankly an example of OOO to call this.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How you gonna justify that one, partner?

My two bits: There's nothing to do here. Let it go, the only rule broken is that a member of the bench left the bench to get something. Yeah, it's technically a violation, but it's frankly an example of OOO to call this.

Thanks, that's how I felt....I feel better and at peace.....

[Mark Padgett]

I never let players go up into the stands unless they bring me back some popcorn. Of course, Diebler sells it to them.

[BillyMac]

10-1-4 Team Technical: Team members shall not fail to occupy the team member's bench to which it is assigned.

Just because it's a rule, doesn't mean you have to call it in this situation.

[Nevadaref]

First, welcome to the forum.
Second, if you are willing to take some criticism, you will learn a lot.
Third, I will now correct all of the inaccurate statements in your first post. Basically, the stuff that you think that you know, but you really don't know.

Originally Posted by derwil

Once the players leave the confines of the court, they are considered bench personnel.

Not true. Players become bench personnel when they are replaced by a substitute, during an intermission between quarters, or when the Head Coach is notified of their disqualification.
Here's an old play ruling from the NFHS which demonstrates why what you have written above is incorrect:
1999-2000 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 6: Player A4 leaves the playing floor before her substitute has an opportunity to report to the scorer’s table. During which time, player A4 disrespectfully addresses the nearest official.
RULING: The official assesses a technical foul on player A4. There is no indirect technical foul charged to the head coach because A4 has not been replaced and is not considered bench personnel. (3-3-3, 4-34-1, 2, 3)

Originally Posted by derwil

So far as I know, there are no restrictions on bench personnel movement other that standing up while play is on the court.

Now you know differently.

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned with player, coach and fan behavior. While administrators continue to focus on solutions, it is imperative that all parties involved accept responsibility and improve behavior. Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed:
...
B. Time-outs: When a team goes on a scoring run, emotions often run high. Nationwide, there is an apparent increase in bench personnel running out onto the court after a time-out is whistled. Typically, the bench personnel of the team that has gained momentum run out onto the court to celebrate and congratulate their teammates. The other team's players, heading toward their bench area, often cross with the celebrating team. This situation often leads to bumping, pushing and/or taunting.
Coaches must make sure that bench personnel remain in the team bench area (1-13-3) after a time-out is called. Officials must be aware of the potential for confrontation, use preventive officiating techniques and penalize appropriately.

2004-05 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
3.
A. ...The committee is also concerned about bench personnel leaving the bench, sometimes during a live ball. Heading into the hallway to get a drink or sitting up in the stands with friends or family, even for a short period of time, are not authorized reasons unless they are medically related. Coaches must ensure that bench personnel remain on the bench.

Originally Posted by derwil

I would probably ask the coach to let her know the correct substitution procedures and to exit the court towards the bench so that there is not a "delay of game" warning posted to her team.

1. There is no requirement for a player to exit the court in any particular direction. You can check the rules book, but you simply won't find anything.

2. There are ONLY four specific reasons that a delay of game warning can be issued to a team. Unless one of these four actions has occurred an official cannot charge one to a team.

RULE 4, SECTION 47 WARNING FOR DELAY

A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official
which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:

ART. 1 . . .

For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-10, 10-1-5c.

ART. 2 . . .

For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in
10-1-5d.

ART. 3 . . .

For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5e.

ART. 4 . . .

For failure to have the court ready for play following any time-out
as in 10-1-5f.

As you can see the action described above is not one of these four, so it would be incorrect to issue a warning for delay in this case.

Originally Posted by derwil

A "T" is unwarrented as this was not a disruption to the game by bench personnel.

1. Spelling counts on this forum.
2. That is your opinion, but another official may believe differently and, as already detailed above, there certainly is rules support for charging a technical foul here.

Originally Posted by derwil

Just my opinion

As a new member here, you may find that the difference between your opinions and the actual rules can be pretty amazing.

If you are willing to stick around, take some heat for your comments, and open your mind to learning new things, then the folks here will increase your rules knowledge and make you a better official.

Best wishes.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you are willing to stick around, take some heat for your comments, and open your mind to learning new things, then the folks here will increase your rules knowledge and make you a better official.

Best wishes.

That's what worked for me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

First, welcome to the forum. Second, if you are willing to take some criticism, you will learn a lot. Basically, the stuff that you think that you know, but you really don't know. As a new member here, you may find that the difference between your opinions and the actual rules can be pretty amazing. If you are willing to stick around, take some heat for your comments, and open your mind to learning new things, then the folks here will increase your rules knowledge and make you a better official. Best wishes.

Great post, maybe the post of the month. What makes it so good are the relevant citations, not just numbers, but the whole citation for those coaches, and fanboys, who may not have a rulebook, or a casebook. I, a twenty-eight year veteran, had to be reminded of some of those old citations. I'm glad that you were not one of the Forum members to be driven away, but to stick around, while I was going through my mad image posting stage.

Speaking of citations. Two of my three free sources of citations has disappeared form the internet, the NFHS rules, and the NFHS caseplays, from the EOfficials website. The only free citations that I can find are the NFHS rules only on the Middle Tennessee Basketball Officials Association website, and portions of the longer rules, like Rule 4 Definitions, aren't included. Are there any other free websites available, and if not, what is the cheapest way to get access to NFHS rules, and caseplays, online? NFHS? EOfficials? Someplace else? I'm so cheap that I squeeze a nickel so tightly that the buffalo has a bowel movement.

Great segue from the buffalo on the tail side of the nickel, to the proud Native American on the other side, to Happy Thanksgiving.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

Team A, 44....Team B, 40....2 minutes in the game..Sophomore Girls...Team A substitutes two players. I watch one head to the bench, while the other left at half court division line into the stands to retrieve something from Dad, and then down to the floor and around to the baseline, and then to the bench. Tech? Teaching moment? No call? I let it go, and nobody cared, but I don't think that is the right call....I let it go because of the quality of play and the "learning curve" nature of the game.....Did I goof?

No call but good teaching moment, Dad could have just as easily brought the *insert item here* down.

[doubleringer]

I agree with everyone else. I'm sure I would have been concentrating on the game and would not have seen a player leave, even if I saw it.

[refnrev]

Two questions. What age level was this and what did she go to get. It might have been an inhaler or something like that. I've got this one filed under the I'm not gonna see this category.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by refnrev

Two questions. What age level was this and what did she go to get. It might have been an inhaler or something like that. I've got this one filed under the I'm not gonna see this category.

Sophomore Girls....I think she retrieved a warm-up jacket...could have been a health issue....And the path from the bucket to the bench was right past me...I couldn't miss her absence....No way not to notice.....but, anyway, I decided to ignore it due to the level of play, and the "learning curve," and the fact that she came right back. I think all of these posts support that view...An inhaler definitely is a no-call....Thanks

[jdmara]

Even though you could probably call something if you wanted to, I would never pick up the dirty end of the stick.

-Josh