elbow to face

[NTRef]

A1, standing at the elbow of the lane, pivots his elbows to avaoid a defender and makes direct contact to the chin of B1. What are your options?

personal foul?
flagrant personal foul?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by NTRef

A1, standing at the elbow of the lane, pivots his elbows to avaoid a defender and makes direct contact to the chin of B1. What are your options?

personal foul?
flagrant personal foul?

1. Incidental contact
2. personal foul/team control foul/player control foul (depending upon who has the ball)
3. intentional personal foul
4. flagrant personal foul

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. Incidental contact
2. personal foul/team control foul/player control foul (depending upon who has the ball)
3. intentional personal foul
4. flagrant personal foul

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the difference between an intentional personal foul and a flagrant personal foul when an elbow is involved. If its intentional that would seem to make it flagrant.

Any examples?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the difference between an intentional personal foul and a flagrant personal foul when an elbow is involved. If its intentional that would seem to make it flagrant.

First of all, we have to remember that it can be an intentional foul without the player doing it "on purpose". The intentional foul can be for excessive contact. He might not realize where the defender is and pivot quickly, trying to "clear space", and accidentally -- but excessively -- contact the defender. Intentional, but not flagrant.

However, if you judge that the player "on purpose" used his elbow to hit an opponent in the head, I would agree that would very likely be flagrant.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by NTRef

A1, standing at the elbow of the lane, pivots his elbows to avaoid a defender and makes direct contact to the chin of B1. What are your options?

personal foul?
flagrant personal foul?

How does one pivot their elbows? And then avoid a defender by hitting him on the chin?


Using Nevada's bullets, I come to these examples:

1. Incidental contact - When A1 pivots to throw a pass or to shoot and B1's chin happens to be in the way with no displacement.

2. personal foul/team control foul/player control foul (depending upon who has the ball) When A1 pivots to throw a pass or to shoot and B1 has LGP and is displaced...same as if he hit him in the chest, chin, shoulder, whatever.

3. intentional personal foul Same as 2 above..only with visible intent and or excessive contact.

4. flagrant personal foul Same as #3 except added violent intentions and byebye

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the difference between an intentional personal foul and a flagrant personal foul when an elbow is involved. If its intentional that would seem to make it flagrant.

Any examples?

There's a difference between an Intentional Foul (note the initial caps -- this is a defined term) and the word "intentional" (note no initial caps) in the definition of Flagrant Foul. Read that word as "purposefully" or "deliberately" to help avoid teh confusion.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First of all, we have to remember that it can be an intentional foul without the player doing it "on purpose". The intentional foul can be for excessive contact. He might not realize where the defender is and pivot quickly, trying to "clear space", and accidentally -- but excessively -- contact the defender. Intentional, but not flagrant.

However, if you judge that the player "on purpose" used his elbow to hit an opponent in the head, I would agree that would very likely be flagrant.

Accidental and excessive = Intentional ?
Unintentional and excessive = Intentional ?

Dunno.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mick

Accidental and excessive = Intentional ?
Unintentional and excessive = Intentional ?

Dunno.

Dat's da rule.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by CoachP

How does one pivot their elbows? And then avoid a defender by hitting him on the chin?

Different defender??

[mick]

Originally Posted by mick

Accidental and excessive = Intentional ?
Unintentional and excessive = Intentional ?

Dunno.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Dat's da rule.

Doesn't say that in my book, Snaqs.

SECTION 19 FOUL

ART. 3 . . . An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

Excessive contact and accidental/unintentional contact are not automatically Intentional. In Scrapper's case:

"He might not realize where the defender is and pivot quickly, trying to "clear space", and accidentally -- but excessively -- contact the defender. Intentional, but not flagrant."

...it may be a player control foul, and that is the difference between no shots and two + the ball.