What to do?

[Bart Tyson]

I gave a similar one earlier this one is just a little different. NCAA Mens. Block/Charge. A1 & B1 collide as A1 releases the ball for shot after the contact. Ball goes in Hoop. One official calls Charge and one official calls Block. Does the basket count? And what is procedure.

[pizanno]

By the book answer:
Double personal foul (4-14-f BR 48): two opponents commit fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

Before the release (assumption that ball hasn't left the hand since you've used the word AS), basket does not count.

Possesion goes to team that previously had player or team control (NCAA 10-12-summary BR-87). New rule this year rather than going to the AP arrow.

Real life answer:
I would hope that one official would acquiesce (likely the trail to the Lead) and "determine" that one "occurred" before the other.

However, the scenario where I see this likely happening is where airborne shooter A1 uses free hand to clear space, while B1, who doesn't have legal guarding position, slides under A1.

Ugly crash, but both fouls require calling.

Tough situation. I've heard that Charles Range made this call in a D1 game a few years back, on TV no less, but I didn't see it myself.

[Bart Tyson]

You just had to give the correct answer right off. good answer. You would be suprised at the different answers I've received. It took me a long time to find out myself.

[pizanno]

Sorry, Bart!

I usually leave the ones I think I know alone, but couldn't resist this one. Still should open up some discussion.

[MRGOLF]

Bart, tough one. Atleast you didn't make both calls yourself and do the dreaded "blarge". Had this hapen to me a couple of years ago. Partner and I tried to get together and go with just one but there was no way of selling it to the coaches so we just went double foul.

[Todd VandenAkker]

I think that's the main problem with this block/charge situation if both refs come up with something different--it's not that one foul happened before the other, but that the refs are calling the same play differently. Because it IS so tough to sell one over the other, even if you agree on which one to go with, you almost HAVE to call it a double foul. Then you make sure you know which of you guys is going to have first crack at the call next time, and continue the game a little red of face.

Here's a variation on that play though. This is still NCAA: If the shooter releases the ball first, then the crash, then the two different calls being sold, what to do? Does the basket count? Let's just assume, for this scenario, that you DO call a double foul.

[Dave Birch]

Hi guys (and gals if that applies) this is my first time posting so if I am not using proper ediquite please let me know.
Some really good answers here but just one oversight. In my pregame with my partner we usually talk about this very situation. What we try to do is whenever we have a drive to the basket and the possibility of a double whistle is have the trail hold off on a signal until he sees the lead. I usually try to just go up with an open hand (as the trail) then if the lead has a fist I will let him come out with the call, if he doesn't whistle it then I close my hand and call my foul. This way you can sell either call. Any comments?

Dave B (wisconsin ref)

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[Todd VandenAkker]

Not so much an oversight, I think, as an effort to suggest what to do if it DOES happen. I agree that a good pre-game, especially with an unfamiliar partner, covers simultaneous whistles, who takes it, and NOT both signaling what you have right away. But inevitably in one's career, there may very well be a time when you both come out selling different calls. In the particular scenario given in this original post, hard to do anything else while maintaining credibility but to call a double foul.

[Bart Tyson]

Dave, good idea. I havn't worked 2man in years. are you saying if the ball comes from trail side, you still give it to lead on double whistle?
OK Todd, 1st of all the basket counts because you said shot before contact. So, we have offensive push and defensive block. Report both fouls. AP arrow.

[Todd VandenAkker]

Yup, that's my understanding, too. Actually, I was thinking of your first scenario where the ball has NOT left until the crash occurs, but still goes in. "pizanno" indicated that the bucket doesn't count, but I believe I was just reading about this situation and that the basket DOES, in fact, count. Reason? Apparently, because it's a double-foul, it is no longer handled as a player-control foul. Therefore, the restriction on not counting the basket doesn't apply. OK, I'm gonna have to check where I read that when I get home. It was either in the NCAA Rules book or in the latest issue of Referee magazine. If there's disagreement about being able to count the basket here, I'll let you know where I read it.

[Bart Tyson]

That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of that rule. If i understand you, you are saying that the rule book changes an official's call from a player control to a common foul? Or is it just a special rule saying it counts, which is what i think you are saying?

[Todd VandenAkker]

Yes, because of the mix-up, it becomes a double-foul instead of a player-control foul. It's the same for both HS and NCAA. It WAS in Referee that I just read it (March, p. 20)--apparently for college it also results in the AP being used, not giving it back to the shooter's team in this situation like most double-foul plays. For HS, it's specifically cited in the Casebook, play 4.19.7C, the last part of which reads: "The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. An AP throw-in results." So, even MORE reason not to let this happen. Can you imagine the opposing coach's reaction when you count the basket?

[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited February 22, 2000).]

[jackgil]

Where is the ball spotted on AP? Where foul occurred?

[Todd VandenAkker]

Right, Jack. Always the spot nearest to where the foul or violation occurred, unless it was a technical.

[pizanno]

Todd-

As usual, you have the last word. UDAMAN!