Block / Charge Situation

[OHBBREF]

Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
Section 6 Contact ART. 2 . . . A dribbler shall not charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is such as to provide a reasonable chance for him or her to go through without contact. If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent. If a dribbler in his/her progress is moving in a straight-line path, he/she may not be crowded out of that path, but if an opponent is able to legally obtain a defensive position in that path, the dribbler must avoid contact by changing direction or ending his/her dribble.

That is the FED from last year I think but I am stuck on the term legally obtain a defensive position. you can not be legal if your foot is on the line. So unless the dribbler put his head down and go out his jousting lance and ran this defender over, the call has to be a block becuase the defender is not legal.
The NCAA wording is virtually identical.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

That is the FED from last year I think but I am stuck on the term legally obtain a defensive position. you can not be legal if your foot is on the line. So unless the dribbler put his head down and go out his jousting lance and ran this defender over, the call has to be a block becuase the defender is not legal.

LGP has to do with being able to get to a spot in the path of an offensive player, not a defender who happens to be in the path the offensive player wants to take. See the difference? In the OP, if the defender is facing the ball handler, then tries to step in front of the moving ball handler and gets to the spot first with both feet inbounds, it's a charge. If the defender contacts the ball handler before getting to the spot first, it's a block, because they didn't maintain LGP. If the defender gets to the spot first, but has one foot OOB, it's a block, also because there is no LGP.

But let's say the defender and ball handler are both standing there staring at each other, then the ball handler decides to run through the defender who is just standing there. Obvious charge. Turn the defender around so their back is to the ball handler, and they are just standing there; now the ball handler takes off and runs through the back of the defender. Another obvious charge, even though the defender does not have LGP, by definition. The defender is entitled to the spot on the floor, and they did not move into the path of the offensive player. This time the defender is standing with one foot OOB before the ball handler takes off - still a charge, again not because of LGP, but because they did not move into the path of the offensive player, and they're entitled to a spot on the floor.

[Adam]

If the defender is stationary, LGP is not required, I don't care how long he's been there. In that case the case play noted is not relevant. If the defender is moving laterally at contact, then he needs LGP, and better not have a foot OOB.
I will not call a block on a stationary defender unless the fed makes it very clear that's what they want; or my assigner does the same.

[OHBBREF]

My point here is that all of the references for being legal - refer to the player being inbounds which he is not.

I am saying that unless the actions of the ball handler are seriously aggressive, unsporting or there is some obvious contact that would be a charge under any circumstances, I can not give the defender the benifit of the doubt it they are not legally on the floor. I am not talking legal guarding position, I am talking about not being legal period. infact in an other thread people have talked about violating him for having his fut on the line.

So l let's twist it this way - and see what you think.
Let's take the ball out of the situation. and make it a rub off screen where A2 is at the baseline with a foot on the baseline while A1 makes a rub off cut inbounds that looses the defender B1 due to contact with A2 is that a legal screen?

If

[Adam]

I don't care if a player has the ball or not; if he is stationary, he cannot be responsible for contact. If he's completely out of bounds, call the violation for leaving the court. If he's got a foot on the line, he can't have or keep LGP. If he doesn't need LGP, then it doesn't matter if his foot is on the line.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

My point here is that all of the references for being legal - refer to the player being inbounds which he is not.

I am saying that unless the actions of the ball handler are seriously aggressive, unsporting or there is some obvious contact that would be a charge under any circumstances, I can not give the defender the benifit of the doubt it they are not legally on the floor. I am not talking legal guarding position, I am talking about not being legal period. infact in an other thread people have talked about violating him for having his fut on the line.

So l let's twist it this way - and see what you think.
Let's take the ball out of the situation. and make it a rub off screen where A2 is at the baseline with a foot on the baseline while A1 makes a rub off cut inbounds that looses the defender B1 due to contact with A2 is that a legal screen?

Be careful about confusing a player being OOB, with a player leaving the court for an unauthorized reason; those are two different scenarios. Having a foot OOB is not leaving the court for an unauthorized reason.

Having a foot OOB can affect whether a player has LGP, and whether or not a screen is considered legal. However, there's still that annoying little phrase about a player being entitled to a spot on the floor. So, in your example, if A2 is set on the spot before B1 starts the move and runs into A2, responsibility for the contact still rests with B1.

[Back In The Saddle]

The provision about a player being entitled to a spot on the floor is not absolute.

NFHS 4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

One common situation when being "there" first is does not entitle the player to that spot is when the player's chosen position is in the path of an already airborne player. I bring this up not because it has direct bearing on the OP, but because it illustrates that merely being first is not absolute.

So to ask the unpopular question: If the defensive player's foot is on the OOB line, even if he's been there since last Tuesday, did he really "get there first without illegally contacting an opponent."?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So to ask the unpopular question: If the defensive player's foot is on the OOB line, even if he's been there since last Tuesday, did he really "get there first without illegally contacting an opponent."?

Yep. Until the Fed tells me otherwise in no uncertain terms.
If the player hasn't left the playing court, then it's a spot he's entitled to.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So to ask the unpopular question: If the defensive player's foot is on the OOB line, even if he's been there since last Tuesday, did he really "get there first without illegally contacting an opponent."?

Did he contact the opponent, or did the opponent contact him?

Besides, if he was there since last Tuesday, wouldn't the janitor have taken care of the situation?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

A spot on the playing court if the player has a foot on the line s/he is NOT on the Playing court!

SECTION 13 COURT AREAS
ART. 1 . . . The frontcourt of a team consists of that part of the court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of the backboard.
ART. 2 . . . The backcourt of a team consists of the rest of the court, including the entire division line and the opponent's basket and inbounds part of the opponent's backboard.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So to ask the unpopular question: If the defensive player's foot is on the OOB line, even if he's been there since last Tuesday, did he really "get there first without illegally contacting an opponent."?

Absolutely....in fact, he got there without contacting an opponent at all. This statement in the rule says nothing about what happens after getting to the spot, only about getting to the spot....i.e., you can't push someone out of the way to get to a spot.