Recent rules changes and POEs please

[refboss]

I am conducting a clinic for prospective officials in San Diego
next week. They'll need to know both NFHS and NCAA rules.

Since I've been away from a formal association for several years,
I was wondering if people on this board might help out with a list
of recently changed rules, mechanics (2 person), and points
of emphasis.

I'd like clarifications for things like what used to be possession arrow,
but are now POI and rules about leaving the court to avoid 3 seconds
or to run around a screen and for player re-establishing position,
first to touch ball, etc.

Are associations instructing officials to call 3 seconds in the key
without verbal warning(s) ?

What is lead's primary area? Can they call on opposite side?

What is protocol for simultaneous whistles for a foul in the key ?

Any literature, graphics, or related sources would be appreciated.

PS I'd like to thank Billy Mac for his help.

Thank you,
Barry Alman
[email protected]

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by refboss

I am conducting a clinic for prospective officials in San Diego
next week. They'll need to know both NFHS and NCAA rules.

Must be So Cal....around there prospective officials need to learn NCAA rules as they have only a matter of months before their first NCAA game

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by refboss

I am conducting a clinic for prospective officials in San Diego
next week. They'll need to know both NFHS and NCAA rules.

Since I've been away from a formal association for several years,
I was wondering if people on this board might help out with a list
of recently changed rules, mechanics (2 person), and points
of emphasis.[/email]

No offense intended, but it sounds as though you should be taking the clinic, not giving it.

[refboss]

Bob,

Just FYI, I have more than a few games under my belt .....
at levels at least as high as you've worked !!
No offense to you!

I wasn't asking to be instructed and thought that this forum would be
a good extra resource!

I was simply looking for material that might enhance my presentation,
since I am not currently registered with any formal group.

Maybe I was foolish to believe that officials here might want to help
other officials in their learning process and show that the members
of this forum are professional.

Perhaps I should refrain from recommending this site as one
to go to learn and have meaningful dialogue.

Have a great day.
Barry Alman (basketball official since 1973)

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by refboss

Bob,

Just FYI, I have more than a few games under my belt .....
at levels at least as high as you've worked !!
No offense to you!

I wasn't asking to be instructed and thought that this forum would be
a good extra resource!

I was simply looking for material that might enhance my presentation,
since I am not currently registered with any formal group.

Maybe I was foolish to believe that officials here might want to help
other officials in their learning process and show that the members
of this forum are professional.

Perhaps I should refrain from recommending this site as one
to go to learn and have meaningful dialogue.

Have a great day.
Barry Alman (basketball official since 1973)

I think the resistance stemmed largely from the nature of your post. It seems as though you want everyone here to do the work for you so you can compile it and present it.

For instance, you asked at least four separate rules questions within your post. Yes, this is a forum where people come and ask questions, but most times it is in a casual, off-hand manner about something that's on our mind or came up in a game last night.

Look at it this way: imagine as if this board were your friendly neighborhood bar, and the posters its patrons. We sit around and talk shop, ask each other questions and even give eachother a hard time every now and then.

Then some guy walks in and says he wants us all to take time out of our drinking and conversing to put together a memo outlining the context of the discussions we've had over the last couple of years and get it back to him so he can go file a report somewhere.

What would you expect the reaction at the bar to be? And what would expect the reaction to be if you stormed out and vowed to never send your friends to that bar?

Just some food for thought.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by refboss

I was simply looking for material that might enhance my presentation, since I am not currently registered with any formal group.

So, you aren't registered as an official with any state organization? You haven't been a part of any local official's organization? You aren't a member of NFHS? You aren't affiliated at all with the NCAA? How come? And, (at the risk of sounding unprofessional), how did you get the assignment of this presentation, given your lack of current knowledge on the subject?

Originally Posted by refboss

Maybe I was foolish to believe that officials here might want to help other officials in their learning process and show that the members of this forum are professional.

Well, given the fact that you are able to post here, you are also a member of this forum, and, by association, you are bringing the overall professionalism of the members down somewhat. And how does it make the rest of us unprofessional if we don't supply information for your presentation at your request? Have you tried the NFHS website? Are they as unprofessional as us?

Originally Posted by refboss

Perhaps I should refrain from recommending visiting this site as one to go to learn and have meaningful dialogue.

Fixed it for you. Besides, "meaningful dialogue", at least here, is a two-way conversation, not "ask for something and get pissed off when I don't receive what I want".

[refboss]

Good analogy!

I do like this bar, but as an infrequenter, maybe I should stroll up to the bar and ask to buy a round for everyone .. before picking their brains (lol) !

Just a quick point: I understand everyone in the bar ignoring the new guy,
but am not sure if the guy at the table's comment was very friendly,
especially since he probably doesn't know with whom he's dealing.

PS I will be able to conduct a very professional clinic with my knowledge,
background, and material already available.
If anyone cares to offer some positive advice, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.
Barry

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by refboss

Just a quick point: I understand everyone in the bar ignoring the new guy,
but am not sure if the guy at the table's comment was very friendly,
especially since he probably doesn't know with whom he's dealing.

I think we know who we're dealing with.



I think most of us just don't give a rat's a$$.

[refboss]

My original post was simply an attempt to gain some
insight into recent rules changes.

Why must it always turn to into something else ?

It's a good thing you can't call a T on me for what I'm thinking.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by refboss

My original post was simply an attempt to gain some
insight into recent rules changes.

Um, actually your request was:

Originally Posted by refboss

Since I've been away from a formal association for several years,
I was wondering if people on this board might help out with a list
of recently changed rules, mechanics (2 person), and points
of emphasis.

I'd like clarifications for things like what used to be possession arrow,
but are now POI and rules about leaving the court to avoid 3 seconds
or to run around a screen and for player re-establishing position,
first to touch ball, etc.

Are associations instructing officials to call 3 seconds in the key
without verbal warning(s) ?

What is lead's primary area? Can they call on opposite side?

What is protocol for simultaneous whistles for a foul in the key ?

Any literature, graphics, or related sources would be appreciated.

According to the above, you weren't looking for "insight", you were looking for "...a list...clarifications...literature, graphics, or related sources".

Originally Posted by refboss

Why must it always turn to into something else ?

Good question; I'm hoping you can provide some "insight". Why did you call the forum members unprofessional, just because those lists and graphics weren't immediately forthcoming? Bob's question was a very legitimate one: How does someone who is admittedly not currently involved with officiating assigned to present information on the current rules and mechanics? And, why does that question offend you to the point you must feel the need to try to intimidate us by "not recommending this site"? And, since you imply you've been an official in the past, have you tried to get this information direct from the rules sources? Have you checked NFHS | National Federation of State High School Associations? How about www.eofficials.com? Both of those sites provide excellent information on the current rules, interps, and mechanics.

Originally Posted by refboss

It's a good thing you can't call a T on me for what I'm thinking.

You're right - any good official knows to not make a call when there's nothing there.

Your name seems to imply your used to giving out orders and having them followed. Most good bosses I've known tend to lead by example, not by ordering and intimidation. JMHO.

[Manmason]

Hello,
I'm new to this site so I hope I'm doing this the right way.
Question: During a free-throw the second space from the basket (Not the low block anymore) is now occupied by the defense. The next space is for the offense, they may use this space or not. My question is: Can the defense occupy this space that the offense chooses not to occupy?

ThankFirst time user

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Manmason

Hello,
I'm new to this site so I hope I'm doing this the right way.
Question: During a free-throw the second space from the basket (Not the low block anymore) is now occupied by the defense. The next space is for the offense, they may use this space or not. My question is: Can the defense occupy this space that the offense chooses not to occupy?

ThankFirst time user

Actually to ask your question, you should start another thread.
The answer to your question is no.

[Manmason]

Where can I find this in the rule book? Defense can't take second free-throw lane space mentioned in an earlier post?
Thanks "Just another ref"!

[Adam]

The applicable rule is 8-1-4d and 8-1-4f. The answer to your question is yes, the defense may move down if they so wish.

Sorry, jar.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The applicable rule is 8-1-4d and 8-1-4f. The answer to your question is yes, the defense may move down if they so wish.

Sorry, jar.

OOPS! Woulda bet a 12 pack on this one. This makes us even for today.