Own goal - accidental or deliberate?

[Ian]

re rules 25.2.2 & 25.2.3 - field goal in own basket.
accidental vs deliberate and how to define.
I've now seen three situations of interest.
1 - under 11 girls, fair standard, end ball passed in to defender who had a mental block, shoots, goal. Credited as accidental (in this case a refereeing supervisor happened to be ref'ing and did know the rule but felt that it was accidental).
2 - under 18 boys, top standard, similar but defensive rebounder got possession and put it straight back in (mental block again). In this case, credited as goal and refs didn't even know there was a relevant rule.
3 - under 18 boys, ok standard but not main competition. Both teams trying to lose grading game to stay down a level. I didn't see this one but was told about it. For the last ten minutes of the game, they simply attacked their own baskets and defended opposition basket, trying to beat themselves. Refs didn't know rule and simply kept scoring.
I thought that the rule was probably meant to cover accidental tip-ins from (say) a rebounding contest and that a purposeful shot taken at the wrong basket was still deliberate even though there is obviously no intent to score for the opposition.
Anybody know whether there is a definitive interpretation of accidental / deliberate?
Thanks in anticipation, hope it's of interest. (Only time in many years of following basketball that I'd heard of the deliberate attempt to lose - surely that's not why the rule was created?)

[Ian]

Clarification - rule references are FIBA.

[Mark Padgett]

Doesn't FEEBLE have some rule against making a mockery of the game, as we have in NF?

This (#3) sounds crazy! In the US, the only way a HS team can get "downgraded" is to lose student population, but that doesn't mean they gain an advantage by doing so.

[Oz Referee]

In FIBA, inentionally scoring in your own basket is a technical foul. If a team repeatedly does this then they forfeit - if there is any advantage to losing the game, why not just forfeit?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
In FIBA, inentionally scoring in your own basket is a technical foul. If a team repeatedly does this then they forfeit - if there is any advantage to losing the game, why not just forfeit?

Point shaving/point spreads.

[Ian]

accidental vs deliberate and how to define

- I sort of wish I hadn't mentioned the ridiculous 'end switch' game that occurred -
I was hoping that with all the ref'ing power out there, someone might be able to assist with an interpretation of what constitutes:
'deliberate'- hence violation and no score and
'accidental'- hence score stands
Any thoughts? or does anyone know of official FIBA interpretation that covers it?
btw - FIBA replied to my question but to discuss it, they want me to ring headquarters (in Germany?)

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Ian
btw - FIBA replied to my question but to discuss it, they want me to ring headquarters (in Germany?)

FEEBLE headquarters are located in the Duchy of Grand Fenwick. It is near Luxembourg. Their phone system is metric, so be sure you have a converter.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Ian
accidental vs deliberate and how to define

- I sort of wish I hadn't mentioned the ridiculous 'end switch' game that occurred -
I was hoping that with all the ref'ing power out there, someone might be able to assist with an interpretation of what constitutes:
'deliberate'- hence violation and no score and
'accidental'- hence score stands
Any thoughts? or does anyone know of official FIBA interpretation that covers it?
btw - FIBA replied to my question but to discuss it, they want me to ring headquarters (in Germany?)

I think you really just have to look at the situation - there are no hard and fast rules as to how to tell if it is accidental or intentional. As a general rule have a look at the behaviour surrounding the basket - if players look like they are "acting the goat" then it was probably on purpose. Like many things, I think this is a judgement call and is almost impossible to develop specific guidline for.

[Ian]

Thanks for the thoughts - got the answer from Anthony of 'Jazzace' - http://www.members.shaw.ca/jazzace/ace/hoop/

The short answer is that in the 'mental block' cases I described (put back from a rebound or shoot in from defensive end ball for example), even though they're deliberate shots at your own basket, they're considered 'accidental' and the points stand (as they always used to - this is the 'normal' case).

It's only when a team is clearly intentionally scoring in their own basket that the rule and violation/possession applies. I'll now quote Anthony for the reason the rule was introduced:

"The story of why the rule was created was told to me in a clinic by Fred Horgan, FIBA Technical Commission member from Canada. Apparently in an international competition, a certain team needed to win by 20 points to get a particular seeding. With a minute left, they were up by less than 10. They decided to score into their own basket until the score was tied, thus giving them five more minutes to generate that 20-point margin. A rule was needed to prevent this from happening."

Thanks again all - and particularly Anthony. His site (URL above) is great if you're not already familiar with it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Ian
re rules 25.2.2 & 25.2.3 - field goal in own basket.
accidental vs deliberate and how to define.
I've now seen three situations of interest.
1 - under 11 girls, fair standard, end ball passed in to defender who had a mental block, shoots, goal. Credited as accidental (in this case a refereeing supervisor happened to be ref'ing and did know the rule but felt that it was accidental).
2 - under 18 boys, top standard, similar but defensive rebounder got possession and put it straight back in (mental block again). In this case, credited as goal and refs didn't even know there was a relevant rule.
3 - under 18 boys, ok standard but not main competition. Both teams trying to lose grading game to stay down a level. I didn't see this one but was told about it. For the last ten minutes of the game, they simply attacked their own baskets and defended opposition basket, trying to beat themselves. Refs didn't know rule and simply kept scoring.
I thought that the rule was probably meant to cover accidental tip-ins from (say) a rebounding contest and that a purposeful shot taken at the wrong basket was still deliberate even though there is obviously no intent to score for the opposition.
Anybody know whether there is a definitive interpretation of accidental / deliberate?
Thanks in anticipation, hope it's of interest. (Only time in many years of following basketball that I'd heard of the deliberate attempt to lose - surely that's not why the rule was created?)

Both teams are making a travesty of the game. After it happens, oh, about 4 times. "Game over."

Go home and watch the Leafs win.

Mike

[AK ref SE]

So did I accidentally or deliberately respond to this post?