FASTBALL Right In The . . .

[Freddy]

I've only seen Situation #2 (below) two times in 3-1/2 decades. But each time it occurred, I'm not sure the proper call was made in reaction to the situation.

Situation #1) A1 has ball for a throw in. Sensing that the five-second count is about up, he intentionally bounces the ball off the leg of defender B1, intending the ball to go back out of bounds so that a new throw in is rewarded. He does, and it happens just like that. Nothing severe, nothing malicious. Upon the out-of-bounds violation, he is awarded another throw in.
Comment: Nothing illegal here, it seems; or is there? Might he be given a warning for causing delay of the game? But if so, to whom would the resulting throw in be administered? Your response invited.

Now, Situation #2) Same scenerio, but this time A1 FIRES A FASTBALL RIGHT INTO THE CROTCH of B1, who is closely but legally defending against the throw in.
Comment: Seems to me there was obvious intended injury here. Would a proper penalty be:
A) an intentional personal foul, since (4-19-3) A1 undertakes something "which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", e.g., the ability to play without pain?
B) a technical foul, according to 4-19-5, "An intentional . . . contact foul while the ball is dead...", though said contact is delivered by means of the ball, which doesn't seem quite right.
C) a technical foul for unsporting conduct (4-19-14) for "a non-contact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"?
D) since injury seemed clearly to be the intent, due to the "fastball" nature of the act, might it be so serious so as to be considered a flagrant foul and subsequent disqualification?

Your response is invited.

Thanx in Advance for Your Insights

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I've only seen Situation #2 (below) two times in 3-1/2 decades. But each time it occurred, I'm not sure the proper call was made in reaction to the situation.

Situation #1) A1 has ball for a throw in. Sensing that the five-second count is about up, he intentionally bounces the ball off the leg of defender B1, intending the ball to go back out of bounds so that a new throw in is rewarded. He does, and it happens just like that. Nothing severe, nothing malicious. Upon the out-of-bounds violation, he is awarded another throw in.
Comment: Nothing illegal here, it seems; or is there? Might he be given a warning for causing delay of the game? But if so, to whom would the resulting throw in be administered? Your response invited.

I do not know where you get the delay of game has anything to do with this issue. That is legal unless you deem something was done to hurt the player.

Originally Posted by Freddy

Now, Situation #2) Same scenerio, but this time A1 FIRES A FASTBALL RIGHT INTO THE CROTCH of B1, who is closely but legally defending against the throw in.
Comment: Seems to me there was obvious intended injury here. Would a proper penalty be:
A) an intentional personal foul, since (4-19-3) A1 undertakes something "which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", e.g., the ability to play without pain?
B) a technical foul, according to 4-19-5, "An intentional . . . contact foul while the ball is dead...", though said contact is delivered by means of the ball, which doesn't seem quite right.
C) a technical foul for unsporting conduct (4-19-14) for "a non-contact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"?
D) since injury seemed clearly to be the intent, due to the "fastball" nature of the act, might it be so serious so as to be considered a flagrant foul and subsequent disqualification?

Your response is invited.

Thanx in Advance for Your Insights

Unless you feel a rule is violated, this is legal. Players do this all the time in my experience trying to throw the ball off an opponent to save a violation or to make sure they are not the ones committing a violation. This is why you get paid the big bucks. Without seeing the play, I have no idea if this would be the right call or to just call a violation. Hitting someone simply in the midsection is not alone a reason to call a foul. That very well could have been an accident. I guess the best way you could know that is how did the player that threw the ball react when they realized what they hit?

Peace

[Nevadaref]

There is nothing wrong with the play in situation #1. Please don't go make something up for this. Just make sure that the ball hits OOB before contacting the thrower (A1), and then give Team A another throw-in.

For situation #2 follow the NFHS case book play.

THROW-IN STRIKES OPPONENT IN FACE
10.3.7 SITUATION B: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in. B1 is putting great pressure on and the count is at four seconds when A1 throws the ball and it strikes B1's face. The ball rebounds from B1's face directly out of bounds. RULING: The administering official will have to make a decision based upon a number of observations. Was the throw-in to B1's face purely accidental or was it a voluntary, planned act? Was the ball contact caused by the movement of the defender? Was the act of a an unsporting nature? The administering official must be aware that players often react negatively in situations where they are frustrated or are retaliating for something which happened earlier in the game.

The ruling will be made according to the judgment of the official. The possibilities are: 1) legal play 2) technical foul 3) flagrant technical foul.
*Note that a personal foul is not possible because there was no physical contact between the two players.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I've only seen Situation #2 (below) two times in 3-1/2 decades. But each time it occurred, I'm not sure the proper call was made in reaction to the situation.

Now, Situation #2) Same scenerio, but this time A1 FIRES A FASTBALL RIGHT INTO THE CROTCH of B1, who is closely but legally defending against the throw in.
Comment: Seems to me there was obvious intended injury here. Would a proper penalty be:
A) an intentional personal foul, since (4-19-3) A1 undertakes something "which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", e.g., the ability to play without pain?
B) a technical foul, according to 4-19-5, "An intentional . . . contact foul while the ball is dead...", though said contact is delivered by means of the ball, which doesn't seem quite right.
C) a technical foul for unsporting conduct (4-19-14) for "a non-contact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"?
D) since injury seemed clearly to be the intent, due to the "fastball" nature of the act, might it be so serious so as to be considered a flagrant foul and subsequent disqualification?

Your response is invited.

Use NFHS case book play 10.3.7 for guidance. That one refers to a thrower hitting a defender in the face with the throw-in. Jmo, but hitting him in the nuts should be considered the same(or worse ).

The case play says that the administering official will have to determine their call based on:
1) Was the throw-in to B1's face accidental or a voluntary, planned act?
2) Was the ball contact caused by the movement of the defender?
3) Was the act of an unsporting nature?

If you feel that it was accidental or that the defender moved into the path of throw-in, the only call would be to repeat the throw-in if it went out of bounds.

If you felt that the the act was deliberate and malicious, you can call either a technical foul on the thrower(using 4-19-5(b)-->a non-contact foul by a player....or 4-19-14), or if you felt that the act was an attempt to injure--> a flagrant technical foul(using 4-19-4--> non-contact which is extreme).

It has to be be a technical foul because there was no physical contact between the two players. All personal fouls involve contact.

Personally, if I felt that the thrower deliberately hit a defender in the face or balls with a throw-in, I'm calling a flagrant "T".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Use NFHS case book play 10.3.7 for guidance. That one refers to a thrower hitting a defender in the face with the throw-in. Jmo, but hitting him in the nuts should be considered the same(or worse ).

The case play says that the administering official will have to determine their call based on:
1) Was the throw-in to B1's face accidental or a voluntary, planned act?
2) Was the ball contact caused by the movement of the defender?
3) Was the act of an unsporting nature?

If you feel that it was accidental or that the defender moved into the path of throw-in, the only call would be to repeat the throw-in if it went out of bounds.

If you felt that the the act was deliberate and malicious, you can call either a technical foul on the thrower(using 4-19-5(b)-->a non-contact foul by a player....or 4-19-14), or if you felt that the act was an attempt to injure--> a flagrant technical foul(using 4-19-4--> non-contact which is extreme).

It has to be be a technical foul because there was no physical contact between the two players. All personal fouls involve contact.

Personally, if I felt that the thrower deliberately hit a defender in the face or balls with a throw-in, I'm calling a flagrant "T".

Beat ya!

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is nothing wrong with the play in situation #1. Please don't go make something up for this. Just make sure that the ball hits OOB before contacting the thrower (A1), and then give Team A another throw-in.

Let's take it one step further. What happens if (similar to the beisbol situation earlier in the yr where the pitcher and batter kept switching from lefty to righty for an extended period of time) A1 keeps throwing the ball off B1 because he can't get the ball inbounds. Three times? Four times? Five times? No timeout called. Defender refuses to give ground (and why should he?). No time off the clock......on and on and on..... Nothing against it in the rules. Do ya do anything? Thoughts?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Let's take it one step further. What happens if (similar to the beisbol situation earlier in the yr where the pitcher and batter kept switching from lefty to righty for an extended period of time) A1 keeps throwing the ball off B1 because he can't get the ball inbounds. Three times? Four times? Five times? No timeout called. Defender refuses to give ground (and why should he?). No time off the clock......on and on and on..... Nothing against it in the rules. Do ya do anything? Thoughts?

I once had a game where the losing team went into a stall offense. The defense sack back in a zone.

Having a game as you describe would simply even everything out.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Let's take it one step further. What happens if (similar to the beisbol situation earlier in the yr where the pitcher and batter kept switching from lefty to righty for an extended period of time) A1 keeps throwing the ball off B1 because he can't get the ball inbounds. Three times? Four times? Five times? No timeout called. Defender refuses to give ground (and why should he?). No time off the clock......on and on and on..... Nothing against it in the rules. Do ya do anything? Thoughts?

Nothing to do. Eventually, the ball will deflect differently.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Let's take it one step further. What happens if (similar to the beisbol situation earlier in the yr where the pitcher and batter kept switching from lefty to righty for an extended period of time) A1 keeps throwing the ball off B1 because he can't get the ball inbounds. Three times? Four times? Five times? No timeout called. Defender refuses to give ground (and why should he?). No time off the clock......on and on and on..... Nothing against it in the rules. Do ya do anything? Thoughts?

I would bet that if the defender is used a few times as a backboard for the inbounder, s/he will probably move back a little bit Or get smart enough to avoid the throw. I don't think you're ever going to see this happen and if you do there is nothing you can do about it.

-Josh

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Situation #1) A1 has ball for a throw in. Sensing that the five-second count is about up, he intentionally bounces the ball off the leg of defender B1. . . Might he be given a warning for causing delay of the game?

Remember that there are only 4 things that we issue delay of game warnings for (NFHS 4-47):

1) Defense interfering with the ball after a made basket,
2) Defense breaking the plane of the throw-in boundary while the thrower-in is still holding the ball,
3) Players contacting the free thrower or huddling before a free throw, and
4) Failure to have the court ready to play at the end of a time-out (e.g., water on the floor in front of the bench).

That's it. That's the list. In your situation, A1 hasn't done anything on that list, so there can be no warning issued. A1 also hasn't done anything illegal. He/she fulfilled all the requirements of a thrower-in. So there's no violation to call. Completely legal play. Issue a new throw-in to Team A at the spot wherever the ball touched out of bounds.

Now, Situation #2) Same scenerio, but this time A1 FIRES A FASTBALL RIGHT INTO THE CROTCH of B1, who is closely but legally defending against the throw in.
Comment: Seems to me there was obvious intended injury here. Would a proper penalty be:
A) an intentional personal foul, since (4-19-3) A1 undertakes something "which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", e.g., the ability to play without pain?
B) a technical foul, according to 4-19-5, "An intentional . . . contact foul while the ball is dead...", though said contact is delivered by means of the ball, which doesn't seem quite right.
C) a technical foul for unsporting conduct (4-19-14) for "a non-contact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"?
D) since injury seemed clearly to be the intent, due to the "fastball" nature of the act, might it be so serious so as to be considered a flagrant foul and subsequent disqualification?

Your response is invited.

Thanx in Advance for Your Insights[/QUOTE]

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by grunewar

A1 keeps throwing the ball off B1 because he can't get the ball inbounds. Three times? Four times? Five times? No timeout called. Defender refuses to give ground (and why should he?). No time off the clock......

Not much time off the clock, maybe, but the clock should start each time the ball contacts B1. The deflection off B1 is a legal touching of the ball, unless you judge that he intentionally kicked it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Baseball situation earlier in the year where the pitcher and batter kept switching from lefty to righty for an extended period of time.

We must have some baseball umpires on the Basketball forum. If I remember correctly, the umpire made the batter choose a side of the plate first, and then the pitcher was able to respond to the batter's selection. What is the actual rule? I don't know baseball rules, but I would think that it should have been the other way around then what was done in that situation. After all, in almost all cases, except this one, the pitcher only pitches with one arm, and switch hitters get to pick a side of the plate to bat from.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What is the actual rule?

Wasn't covered at the time. Pitcher must declare first.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We must have some baseball umpires on the Basketball forum. If I remember correctly, the umpire made the batter choose a side of the plate first, and then the pitcher was able to respond to the batter's selection. What is the actual rule? I don't know baseball rules, but I would think that it should have been the other way around then what was done in that situation. After all, in almost all cases, except this one, the pitcher only pitches with one arm, and switch hitters get to pick a side of the plate to bat from.

BillyMac:

The batter can change after every pitch as long as he does not delay the game. The pitcher must choose one hand and use it the entire time the batter is at bat.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

bob jenkins and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Thanks for clearing this up for me.