Muff during Spot Throw In?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Yes, the player muffed the ball. Let's fix it & resume play.

[Dependent of level of play]
Once I give him the ball, he's in charge.
When he muffs the ball due to a fake pass, or due to too many thumbs, if he leaves the designated spot he causes a violation of 7-6-3 leaving the spot before releasing a throw-in pass.

Lower levels could easily be do-overs.

Mick - I agree, but didn't know we were speaking of faked passes... that would definitely be the players fault.

[Adam]

"Muff" to me means the player never cleanly received the "pass" from the official. If he has the ball, fakes a pass, and loses control, all bets are off.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Muff" to me means the player never cleanly received the "pass" from the official. If he has the ball, fakes a pass, and loses control, all bets are off.

I agree.

But, there is (or was) an NCAA case play to the effect mentioned in the OP (after "controlling" (and I don't mean to imply Player Control) the ball, and then losing it, the player may retrieve it, return to the original spot and complete the throw-in)

[JugglingReferee]

US football codes nicely defines muff as trying to obtain possession. A fumble is losing control of the ball when a player had possession.

Extending these terms along with JAR's comment is spot on. If we do re-admin the TI, start the 5-second count over, too.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If we do re-admin the TI, start the 5-second count over, too.

Good point! lol It seems obvious to most but we know where assuming will get you.

-Josh

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree.

But, there is (or was) an NCAA case play to the effect mentioned in the OP (after "controlling" (and I don't mean to imply Player Control) the ball, and then losing it, the player may retrieve it, return to the original spot and complete the throw-in)

That's correct. Here is the ruling from the NCAA's 2008 Case Book.

Throw-in

A.R. 157.

A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves the
designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?

RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/her
whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall re-administer
the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.5)

The NFHS has such a ruling for a FT shooter, but not for an inbounder.
FREE-THROWER LOSES BALL
9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's correct. Here is the ruling from the NCAA's 2008 Case Book.

Throw-in

A.R. 157.

A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves the

designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?

RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/her

whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall re-administer
the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.5)

Good rule.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Throw-in

A.R. 157.

A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves the
designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?

RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/her
whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall re-administer
the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.5)

The NFHS has such a ruling for a FT shooter, but not for an inbounder.
FREE-THROWER LOSES BALL
9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

It's interesting the NCAA does use the word "fumble", while the NFHS uses both "muffs" and "accidentally drops". It seems as though there may not be a difference in control, like the football reference between the words "fumble" and "muff".

While I don't disagree with the philosophy that a player that loses control while trying to fake a pass is different than a player that doesn't catch the pass cleanly from the official, there doesn't seem to be that distinction in the rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Here is the ruling from the NCAA's 2008 Case Book. Throw-in A.R. 157. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves thedesignated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation? RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/herwhistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall re-administer the throw-in (Rule 7-6.5

The NFHS has such a ruling for a FT shooter, but not for an inbounder.
FREE-THROWER LOSES BALL 9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

Nevaderef: Thanks for the citations. I wish the NFHS would have a casebook play, as the NCAA does, covering a fumbled throwin. Unless the player throwing in the ball is faking a pass, or doing something else with the ball to distract the defenders, if he, or she, simply drops the ball (fumbles, muff, etc.), I'm probably going to treat it as the NCAA citation, even if it's a NFHS game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nevaderef: Thanks for the citations. I wish the NFHS would have a casebook play, as the NCAA does, covering a fumbled throwin. Unless the player throwing in the ball is faking a pass, or doing something else with the ball to distract the defenders, if he, or she, simply drops the ball (fumbles, muff, etc.), I'm probably going to treat it as the NCAA citation, even if it's a NFHS game.

I'll readminister on a muff, but not on a fumble. Why does the player deserve another chance?

If A1 is holding the ball at the top of the key and drops it so that it rolls away, would you blow the whistle and give the ball back to the player? That would be silly.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If he dives towards the ball after muffing it does that make him a, er, never mind.

Whoa, you might offend someone such as rainmaker! Oh wait, she's not around anymore. Carry on then.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Whoa, you might offend someone such as rainmaker! Oh wait, she's not around anymore. Carry on then.

She popped her head up a couple weeks ago - I bet she is reading some, still. Or maybe not. I dunno.