Legal pick?

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Check it out. Have your speakers on to hear the announcer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9rYa...eature=related

Foul. Rutledge will most certainly disagree.

[Jurassic Referee]

Illegal block. The player setting the pick is moving forward out of her vertical at contact.

[Tio]

It is a violent play. Nobody will say a thing if you call a foul on that play.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Tio

It is a violent play.

That wouldn't be the reason I would call the foul. I have seen plenty of violent collisions on legal screens, and I would've been wrong to call a foul just so "no one would say anything".

In this case, the screener did not provide the required time/distance before stepping in the path of the opponent. My guess is it caught the new T by surprise, since it was secondary defender. This would've been a good call by the C.

[vbzebra]

[B]"In this case, the screener did not provide the required time/distance before stepping in the path of the opponent. My guess is it caught the new T by surprise, since it was secondary defender. This would've been a good call by the C." [/QUOTE][/B]

Since it might have indeed "caught the new T by surprise", and since I was taught to "referee the defense", I understand the T should be watching the on-ball defender in his/her area. But would this serve as a teaching point to glance up quickly to see if there is a screener in the area? This may have gotten rid of the "surprise" factor for the T. Thoughts???

Similar play happened to me in 2-man last year. Call was blatantly obvious in my situation b/c the screener extended his arms during contact as if he were a linebacker tattooing a quarterback after an interception!

In my opinion (only entering my 2nd year, so I don't have the experience as others here), I feel it was an illegal screen not b/c of the severity, but b/c the screener wasn't stationary in her vertical plane and leaned out of her plane to set the screen. Foul? yes. Dirty/flagrant? No.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

In this case, the screener did not provide the required time/distance before stepping in the path of the opponent. My guess is it caught the new T by surprise, since it was secondary defender. This would've been a good call by the C.

Caught the new T by surprise? Amen. I've watched this video several times, knowing what to expect, and this screen still catches me by surprise. Imagine how surprised the screened player must have been.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Tio

It is a violent play. Nobody will say a thing if you call a foul on that play.

Severity of contact is NEVER a factor in determining whether a block is legal or not.

See NFHS rule 4-40-7.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Tio

Foul. Rutledge will most certainly disagree.

It was only a foul because the screener did not stand still at the moment of contact (body, not feet). But to suggest that there was a lowered shoulder would be an exaggeration.

I guess you would call a foul not because of what the player did, but because the player was possibly hurt. The result of what happened to the defender should have little or no relevance to the call. This was a smaller player running into a bigger player. She would have likely had the same result no matter if a foul took place or not. There is a reason you “call out” screens to your teammates.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

First, the talking head is an idiot to make the statement that the official did not see the contact.

Second, B2 had acquired (I hope I spelled that word correctly.) her position legally: she gave proper time and distance in relation to the moving A2. Keeping in mind that we are all seeing this play at actual game speed this what I also say. B2's body did not sway from side to side to cause contact with A2. B2 did stick her chest out prior to A2 making contact with her. Keeping mind that a player who is setting a screen can brace themselves against imminent contact, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to B2 in this play. She did not push out with her hands and arms in an effort to push A2 nor did I think her sticking our her chest was an effort to push A2; it was an effort to brace herself against immenint contact by A2. Therefore, I have this as a legal screen by B2 and there is no foul by A2 because B2 was not displaced. This is pretty much a text book legal screen against a moving opponent.

MTD, Sr.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

First, the talking head is an idiot to make the statement that the official did not see the contact.

Second, B2 had acquired (I hope I spelled that word correctly.) her position legally: she gave proper time and distance in relation to the moving A2. Keeping in mind that we are all seeing this play at actual game speed this what I also say. B2's body did not sway from side to side to cause contact with A2. B2 did stick her chest out prior to A2 making contact with her. Keeping mind that a player who is setting a screen can brace themselves against imminent contact, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to B2 in this play. She did not push out with her hands and arms in an effort to push A2 nor did I think her sticking our her chest was an effort to push A2; it was an effort to brace herself against immenint contact by A2. Therefore, I have this as a legal screen by B2 and there is no foul by A2 because B2 was not displaced. This is pretty much a text book legal screen against a moving opponent.

MTD, Sr.

When you are "bracing" yourself, you don't lean toward the oncoming player, which in my opinion she does (obvious in slow motion). Let's focus on the game management of the play. If you think that a no-call in this situation is good for the game, then by all means I would like to hear what kind of explanation the coach gets. I imagine this crew was in hot water the rest of the night.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

When you are "bracing" yourself, you don't lean toward the oncoming player, which in my opinion she does (obvious in slow motion). Let's focus on the game management of the play. If you think that a no-call in this situation is good for the game, then by all means I would like to hear what kind of explanation the coach gets. I imagine this crew was in hot water the rest of the night.

Look, I haven't seen the play yet (stupid firewalls), but are you saying you'd call a foul just for game management purposes, even if the rules did not call for one?

Let's change this play and assume for a second that B2 had position, had stood there since the end of the 2004 Olympics, and A2 crashed into B2, falling to the floor but did not so much as make B2 flinch. What's your call?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Tio

When you are "bracing" yourself, you don't lean toward the oncoming player, which in my opinion she does (obvious in slow motion). Let's focus on the game management of the play. If you think that a no-call in this situation is good for the game, then by all means I would like to hear what kind of explanation the coach gets. I imagine this crew was in hot water the rest of the night.

The fact that we had to look at the play in slow motion (from two angles BTW) should tell you and everyone something.

And as I said, you are more worried about the result of the play, not whether it was legal or not. I would feel better if you just said it was illegal. Game management really has nothing to do with this play. At the very least it does not on a clip we see of one play.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

The violence or lack thereof notwithstanding...

The screener makes a forward motion with her torso that is clearly not just bracing herself for contact.

Illegal screen.

As mentioned before, there is zero percent chance of getting in trouble by blowing your whistle here. Not because of "game management", but because it's the right call, and everybody can see it.

Had she just stood there it would have been a good screen, albeit a tough one (for that defender, anyway). The extra motion was unnecessary and illegal.

Agree the T may have been straight-lined, but I'm thinking his height, along with the rather large height difference between the screener and defender, should have presented the necessary look at the illegal torso action. But full speed, who knows.

"Make all your errors errors of omission" - John Clougherty

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

The violence or lack thereof notwithstanding...

The screener makes a forward motion with her torso that is clearly not just bracing herself for contact.

Illegal screen.

As mentioned before, there is zero percent chance of getting in trouble by blowing your whistle here. Not because of "game management", but because it's the right call, and everybody can see it.

Had she just stood there it would have been a good screen, albeit a tough one (for that defender, anyway). The extra motion was unnecessary and illegal.

Agree the T may have been straight-lined, but I'm thinking his height, along with the rather large height difference between the screener and defender, should have presented the necessary look at the illegal torso action. But full speed, who knows.

"Make all your errors errors of omission" - John Clougherty

I think this is overall well said. The "laying into" the defender by the offensive player is an unnatural move or overt move. She is not bracing herself she is trying to add a little extra to her screen. That is not a legitimate basketball move or play.

I agree that the game management reason is not the best statement to make here but I understand what he's saying. You could def be wrong on this play but be right cause no one is going to say a word.

Final verdict from me: illegal screen in every sense!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The fact that we had to look at the play in slow motion (from two angles BTW) should tell you and everyone something.

While the play from a couple weeks ago was very difficult (I looked at it time after time and was only sure after seeing it frame-by-frame), this play took me 1 shot to judge and I decided before I even got to the replay. There is no way that this is anything but a block (illegal screen) and the trail should expect to receive a severe tounge lashing from somebody after that not calling that one (coach, assignor, evaluator, etc.)