Legal pick?

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While the play from a couple weeks ago was very difficult (I looked at it time after time and was only sure after seeing it frame-by-frame), this play took me 1 shot to judge and I decided before I even got to the replay. There is no way that this is anything but a block (illegal screen) and the trail should expect to receive a severe tounge lashing from somebody after that not calling that one (coach, assignor, evaluator, etc.)

I think this possibly is a 2 official play with the C picking up the screener, but the bottom line is the T got surpised. Somebody needs to make the call.

[JRutledge]

Mark,

I completely agree with you. The only reason I think it was a foul was because I saw the replay. Live speed, it was suspect at best and I see why a foul was not called. This is after all another 50/50 play that is really hard to call when live, especially for a single official to handle. And the C would likely not be looking at this play, because all the other players have released to the FC.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

B2 did stick her chest out prior to A2 making contact with her.

This is pretty much a text book legal screen against a moving opponent.

The text book says "The screener must stay within his/her vertical plane with a stance approximately shoulder width apart." That's rule 4-40-2(d) in the NFHS textbook, Mark. Sticking your chest INTO an opponent is NOT bracing for contact; it's being out of your vertical plane.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

First, the talking head is an idiot to make the statement

Normally I would agree with this blanket statement.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

that the official did not see the contact.

However, they might be correct - there is a chance the T was straight-lined. If you look at each replay, there is a relatively straight line from the official to the ball handler, to the defender, then the screener.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Second, B2 had acquired (I hope I spelled that word correctly.) her position legally: she gave proper time and distance in relation to the moving A2.

I disagree; I thought she was still moving into the path of the defender at the moment of contact. I also have to agree with the Jurassic One in that the screener poking out her chest is no different than hip-checking a cutter on the way by - both moves are illegal due to the rule he cited.

Jeff - on your point about the C releasing downcourt - I did look at the play again, and you're right that all the other players had passed half court, and the C was following them. It would be a good call for the C to make if there were a few more players in the backcourt, but you're right that the C might not be available to hang back that long to get that call.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a reason you “call out” screens to your teammates.

Peace

I watched the play a few times and from the camera angle I don't see that it is an obvious foul or an obvious no call. I could really be fine with either call and T and C had a better look at it than us. The screener appears to be in a good position as far as timing and distance, but she also appears to lean a little at contact. We all know that the game looks different from the floor tahn it does from the stands. Tough play either way. I don't agree that you call a foul purely for game management, you call what you see. We all know there can be contact without a foul. I think Rut hit it on the head in that there should be a teammate there to call out the screen, especially at that level of basketball.

So, my definitive decsion after watching the tape is, "hell if I know."

[zeedonk]

From my (newer official) perspective, I'm probably calling that and going the other way every time. I understand that these are college players and even at the HS level, I think I'm still making that call. I think I see enough forward movement from A2 combined with the shoulder turn (slight as it may be) to turn the ball over.

I'm not so concerned with the contact (violent, excessive etc) because if she didn't move forward and turn the shoulder, I'm probably not calling it. The argument that she can brace herself for contact holds water with me, but I think I see more than that, or at least A2 operating under the theory of "I'm gonna get hit pretty good, so I'm going to brace hard and give a little back".

My impression at first view at full speed was foul on offense. Given the movement, intentional or not, of A2, if I let it go, things get out of hand pretty quickly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

My impression at first view at full speed was foul on offense. Given the movement, intentional or not, of A2, if I let it go, things get out of hand pretty quickly.

Games only get out of hand if you do not know how to deal with situations. They do not get out of hand because of one call or non-call. The violence of this play was caused because the defensive player never saw the screen. It was not caused by a slight lean at the time of contact. Actually without the slow motion replay, it was hard to tell how much lean if any at all. Because time and distance was clearly given, the screen was just not vertical and within the screener's space.

What are you going to do if you have a legal play and the violence was the same? How are you going to keep the game from getting out of hand if you have a legal play and the team on defense is still upset? I say this because most situations I have handled with my partners almost never take place based on how much air I put into my whistle.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

JRut,

I think if I have this much contact on a play, odds are there is a foul on somebody... but not always.

I worked with a guy once who told me that if there was a player down on the floor, there had to be a foul on somebody. I asked him if he had ever seen a player running down the floor just trip over his own feet with no one else around him. He said, "Gee, I never thought of that."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

I think if I have this much contact on a play, odds are there is a foul on somebody... but not always.

Odds figure into it about as much as game management does. Nada! Zip! Iow, you can't depend on either; they're both completely irrelevant.

Quit over-thinking the play and simply call what happens. Each play is different; each call is different.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

I'm just saying that when contact like that occurs... odds are there was a foul on SOMEONE...

But that's not my thought process at time of call... I'm more reacting to what happened in front of me.

I have seen that play several times where the screener does nothing illegal and a fouls should not be called. It is not about odds, it is about what happen on the play. And the NCAA has used plays like this as an example with legal screens and they did not want a foul.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

I'm just saying that when contact like that occurs... odds are there was a foul on SOMEONE...

And I'm just saying that when contact like that occurs, there are NO odds involved. It either IS or it ISN'T a foul.

The "odds" are completely irrelevant when it comes to the decision that has to be made. Similarly, "game management" is completely irrelevant also to the play being discussed in this thread.

Even if your thoughts about the "odds" favoring a foul are correct, how would that be relevant or germane in any way to this particular play or any screening play for that matter? Even though the "odds" might say that it should be a foul, so what? Whatintheheck good will the "odds" do for you in the cases when there ISN'T a foul being committed?

Btw, what ARE the odds that there is a foul on someone when heavy contact occurs? 51%-49%? 99%-1%? Or should we take a poll every time it happens?

Jmo again, and I know that you must be getting sick of reading it, but you're over-thinking the hell outa this call. You simply "read and react". The hardest part to learn is what to look for in these type of screening situations....time and distance, verticality, moving/leaning, exaggerated stance, blind or not, foot in a boundary line, etc....and to do it in a hurry-up bang-bang type of situation. After you master those(and I'm not sure that we ever completely master them), you're doing yourself a dis-service by adding irrelevant factors to make what can be a tough call even tougher.

Btw, all JRut is doing is saying just about the exact same thing but in a different way. And he's not the only one doing so in this thread.