First camp advice

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by mick

Don't say, "Ya but...."
Just say, "Okay."

That was the very first thing the directors told us on Day One....

I did have a situation that I think I handled the right way, though:

3 man crew, I am C-> rebound to defense and we start transition back when new T makes a foul call in backcourt nearly on the end line, no change of possession, still going the distance. I came back into the backcourt a few steps to watch players while T reports and so he can come back and administer throw in (no long switches for us in Jersey).

Observer directly behind me tells me to go get the ball so the kids don't pick it up and take off with it- return to T and resume my position, it looks cleaner and helps with the uncertainty of the crew's limited experience in 3 man. OK,makes sense to me.

Same game, same thing happens later. I go to get the ball and at next dead ball 2nd observer comes to me and says I don't have to go get it, just come back into backcourt to make sure there are no problems.

I didn't "yeabut" him. I said "the reason I did that is because last game I was told to go get it and it helps keep the transition smooth b/c we are a little inexperienced at 3 man". 2nd observer says, "OK, that's fine- if the crew were more experienced T would know that he's reporting and returning to administer and you would know that he knows, so you just make sure the kids don't kill each other while T reports". I told him I would check with our assignor as to how our local board wants it done (both observers were D1 officials) 2d observers says "that's exactly what I'd do too".

Tonight, its back to 2 man and we're told that the observers will be watching calls closely and wanting to question why we made or didn't make calls.

And I am amazed at what I have heard from other officials saying back to the observers- and amongst each other. I'm limiting myself to "OK" and "thanks".

Z

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

That was the very first thing the directors told us on Day One....

I did have a situation that I think I handled the right way, though:

3 man crew, I am C-> rebound to defense and we start transition back when new T makes a foul call in backcourt nearly on the end line, no change of possession, still going the distance. I came back into the backcourt a few steps to watch players while T reports and so he can come back and administer throw in (no long switches for us in Jersey).

Observer directly behind me tells me to go get the ball so the kids don't pick it up and take off with it- return to T and resume my position, it looks cleaner and helps with the uncertainty of the crew's limited experience in 3 man. OK,makes sense to me.

Same game, same thing happens later. I go to get the ball and at next dead ball 2nd observer comes to me and says I don't have to go get it, just come back into backcourt to make sure there are no problems.

I didn't "yeabut" him. I said "the reason I did that is because last game I was told to go get it and it helps keep the transition smooth b/c we are a little inexperienced at 3 man". 2nd observer says, "OK, that's fine- if the crew were more experienced T would know that he's reporting and returning to administer and you would know that he knows, so you just make sure the kids don't kill each other while T reports". I told him I would check with our assignor as to how our local board wants it done (both observers were D1 officials) 2d observers says "that's exactly what I'd do too".

Tonight, its back to 2 man and we're told that the observers will be watching calls closely and wanting to question why we made or didn't make calls.

And I am amazed at what I have heard from other officials saying back to the observers- and amongst each other. I'm limiting myself to "OK" and "thanks".

Z

Camp season is so much fun, isnt it???? LOL....

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Camp season is so much fun, isnt it???? LOL....

Notice how tactfully I did NOT throw observer #1 under the bus!!! It would have been easy to point across court and say "Yeah, but HE told me to do X.."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Notice how tactfully I did NOT throw observer #1 under the bus!!! It would have been easy to point across court and say "Yeah, but HE told me to do X.."

Anything beyond "Ok" or "I see" or "Yes sir/ma'am" is usually too much.

I had a situation in my last camp where an observer didn't like a call I made. At first I thought he wanted an explanation but then looking in his eyes I realized that he didn't so I cut off my sentence about 3-4 words into it and just said "OK" and nodded. Another observer pulled me to the side afterwards and reminded me about keeping your mouth shut when an observer is talking.

Best advice, IMO, is to not offer information unless you have been asked a specific, non-rhetorical, question.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

I didn't "yeabut" him. I said "the reason I did that is because last game I was told to go get it and it helps keep the transition smooth b/c we are a little inexperienced at 3 man". 2nd observer says, "OK, that's fine- if the crew were more experienced T would know that he's reporting and returning to administer and you would know that he knows, so you just make sure the kids don't kill each other while T reports". I told him I would check with our assignor as to how our local board wants it done (both observers were D1 officials) 2d observers says "that's exactly what I'd do too".

That's probably a good answer. But here's my thing. Don't worry about the ball. Concentrate on the players and forget the ball. Someone will get the ball. We can't play without it.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's probably a good answer. But here's my thing. Don't worry about the ball. Concentrate on the players and forget the ball. Someone will get the ball. We can't play without it.

This is also my opinion. But I have been told at camp -- in very strong terms -- by D1 observers that retrieving the ball helps your partner, keeps the game moving, and looks a lot better than having the ball sitting in the middle of the floor.

So my compromise is that in a 2-whistle game, I ignore the ball and freeze my eyes on the players. In a 3-whistle game, if I'm the closest non-calling official, I'll get the ball (and hope that my other partner is watching the players).

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I have been told at camp -- in very strong terms -- by D1 observers that retrieving the ball helps your partner, keeps the game moving, and looks a lot better than having the ball sitting in the middle of the floor.

It also looks a lot better than having the kid inbound the ball & start heading up the court as the official is reporting the foul. Then we have to blow them back & start again. That looks real ugly...

Originally Posted by zeedonk

I didn't "yeabut" him.
I said "the reason I did that is because last game I was told to go get it and it helps keep the transition smooth b/c we are a little inexperienced at 3 man".

Even though the 2nd observer understood where you were coming from, your explanation could've been taken as "yeah but". So be careful! I'm learning that you will be told different philosophies about the same situations by different observers. The last thing they want to hear is "last game so & so said this". At some D1 camps I've seen guys removed & replaced for that very comment. Sometimes they say different things to see how well you adjust & if you're coachable. I would stay away from explanations or reasons why after being told something for the remainder of this camp.

Maybe the second observer meant that you didn't have to actually go get the ball. When I'm C in transition & the new T has a BC foul to report I generally have the closest kid toss me the ball (smile & say thank you) then toss it back to the T after they conclude business.
Remember to move with a purpose.

JMO, do with it what you choose. Most of all have fun & enjoy the experience!

[mick]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

3 man crew, I am C-> rebound to defense and we start transition back when new T makes a foul call in backcourt nearly on the end line, no change of possession, still going the distance. I came back into the backcourt a few steps to watch players while T reports and so he can come back and administer throw in (no long switches for us in Jersey).

Sounds like you handled that sitch pretty well, but understand the notion of...

The *Lazy C* :

• Doesn't leave front court on the *dead run* unless there's a fast break.
• Hangs around the division line to assist Trail with division line and backcourt players.
  • Loose defense in backcourt
• After a score, hangs around Free-throw line extended to determine if Trail will need assistance.
  • Ball coming up on C-side
  • 4-5 players in backcourt light pressure
  • Pressure defense

Point being, you may have been a bit too far down court.
*Lazy C* should be very aware of the ball, of is partner on ball and of being there to help when needed. two eyes in the back court and two eyes in the front court and you've got 'er.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

I didn't "yeabut" him. I said "the reason I did that is because last game I was told to go get it and it helps keep the transition smooth b/c we are a little inexperienced at 3 man". 2nd observer says, "OK, that's fine- if the crew were more experienced T would know that he's reporting and returning to administer and you would know that he knows, so you just make sure the kids don't kill each other while T reports". I told him I would check with our assignor as to how our local board wants it done (both observers were D1 officials) 2d observers says "that's exactly what I'd do too".

I still would not tell the observer what another observer or what you heard at another camp. As someone said, it still sounds like a "yeahbut" type of interaction. All I would do is ask for clarification and reasoning. I would not tell them what someone else told me because it is possible they do not care what the other person said to you. What and observer is telling you what they think is best and what works for them and others. That does not mean everything they tell you will work for you. Listen and say "OK" and move on. Or soon you will get the reputation as knowing everything and those that would help, just leave you be.

Peace

[zeedonk]

Thanks for the advice- I'll go with the "OKs" and "thanks" the rest of camp.

When might it be appropriate to ask any of the observers or directors for further explanation or to discuss a particular play in more detail? Obviously, its not during the game or while they are involved in another game- after the games perhaps?

Or should I not push the envelope without a specific invitation? It sounds like an obvious question, but if the observers don't want the campers to get too deep into what they advise, then I don't want to seem ungrateful or that I'm arguing with them. I/we don't know the answer, or I/we don't know why I/we should have passed on that call, that's why it's my/our first year and first camp. Ask or figure it out for myself?

[Camron Rust]

This situation reminds me of a funny issue I encountered at camp several years ago....

I'm lead and Observer1, on one end of the court, is telling me I need to move to spot X. After a trip or two and a foul or two leaving me lead on the other end of the court, Observer2 is telling me I need to move to spot Y. It happens that spot X and spot Y are very different directions from each other relative to where I had been positioning myself. Each trip to the opposite end of the court, I keep getting "corrected" on my position since I couldn't figure out where I should be with conflicting info.

We got to the end of the half or a timeout and the observer I was closest to was starting to talk about the position again. I responded that I would be happy to do as he asked but that the guy on the other end of the court was telling me to move the exact opposition direction and I was having a hard time figuring out how to do both.

He had a good laugh when he realized what was going on and the dilemma I was in with to sets of conflicting instructions.

Aside from a case like that, I agree...not much response is advisable.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It happens that spot X and spot Y are very different directions from each other relative to where I had been positioning myself.

Closing down vs. going wide?

[Odd Duck]

At the last camp I attended I worked with an official who was new to 3-official mechanics. I don't rememeber the specific point, but apparently during our post-game session with the evaluator he received input that conflicted with something said previously. I thought his response was great and I have put it in "my toolbox".

He said "Excuse me but I am confused and since there is a very high probability my confusion is my fault can I ask some questions?" His first question started with "Earlier in the camp I understood the clinician to say I should..." and ended with his restatement of what the evaluator just said and asked for some assistance in reconciling the advice. I thought that was a great approach in bringing up conflicting advice without being a "Yea but" camper.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Odd Duck

At the last camp I attended I worked with an official who was new to 3-official mechanics. I don't rememeber the specific point, but apparently during our post-game session with the evaluator he received input that conflicted with something said previously. I thought his response was great and I have put it in "my toolbox".

He said "Excuse me but I am confused and since there is a very high probability my confusion is my fault can I ask some questions?" His first question started with "Earlier in the camp I understood the clinician to say I should..." and ended with his restatement of what the evaluator just said and asked for some assistance in reconciling the advice. I thought that was a great approach in bringing up conflicting advice without being a "Yea but" camper.

Did you work a game with me? This is more or less what I do and did just a few weeks ago at a camp at Central Washington when I received apparently conflicting information. The evaluator was happy to expand on his comment (the two statements were not actually conflicting...just one was misunderstood) and I ended with "Thanks, I've got it now".