Elbows

[Scrapper1]

Ump, excessively swinging the elbows is a violation, NFHS 9-13. By definition, "excessively" means "faster than the torso is rotating" (4-24-8a). It is legal, to hold the ball to your chest or under your chin with your elbows extended (9-13-2), but that doesn't make it legal to contact an opponent with those elbows.

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called against the player with the ball. It's something that you'd have to see to give an informed opinion, obviously; but (1) it's legal to hold the ball like that and (2) it's not legal to knock somebody on their butt by putting an elbow into their chest.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ump, excessively swinging the elbows is a violation, NFHS 9-13. By definition, "excessively" means "faster than the torso is rotating" (4-24-8a). It is legal, to hold the ball to your chest or under your chin with your elbows extended (9-13-2), but that doesn't make it legal to contact an opponent with those elbows.

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called against the player with the ball. It's something that you'd have to see to give an informed opinion, obviously; but (1) it's legal to hold the ball like that and (2) it's not legal to knock somebody on their butt by putting an elbow into their chest....

...eye, nose, cheek, chin, ear, etc.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bktballref

..eye, nose, cheek, chin, ear, etc.

Thanks. I think I covered that, though. . .

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called

[BktBallRef]

Judas Preist...so sensitive.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Judas Preist...so sensitive.

Hmmmm. I don't see the smiley in your post. It must be stuck up your. . .

[TravelinMan]

Ump, just curious, where upstate? I used to officiate in the Albany area. I was part of IAABO 36 and you had to be at least 18 to call. Youngest official I ever worked with was in college and he was a decent official. All officials had to take written test; new officials were partnered with more experienced officials. How young was your ref?

[RKBUmp]

I am actually in AZ, NYS stands for National Youth Sports.

The officiating is all over the place, sometimes we get a great ref, other times we are pretty much playing without one on the floor. I would guess this kid is probably 16-18. At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I am actually in AZ, NYS stands for National Youth Sports.

The officiating is all over the place, sometimes we get a great ref, other times we are pretty much playing without one on the floor. I would guess this kid is probably 16-18. At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Two things.
1. Never tell me the foul count is lopsided. We can discuss individual plays and calls, but not a foul count. I don't care about it.
2. Never count out loud to me. You'll get one quick warning, after that we'll be shooting free throws. Of course, I'll call three seconds if the play warrants it and you'll see my hand swinging on all other counts.

edited: I was thinking you coached for some reason. Went back and re-read the OP. I wouldn't have even heard you.

[TravelinMan]

RKB Ump - you seem very frustrated and powerless about changing things

For your own peace of mind do 2 things:

(1) speak to your coach and see about getting more qualified officials to ref your games - find out which association assigns varsity or sub-varsity games in your area.

(2) get your hands on some rule books - you may be surprised by what constitutes 3 seconds, backcourt violations, travelling......etc. Knowledge is power

Good luck!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Hey, if you're an umpire, do you believe in evening out calls too? Maybe call a few outs at first when a player was safe.....just to make sure the calls are even?

I got news for you, fanboy. We don't worry about how many fouls each team has. We worry about getting the call right.

Great job. Try to intimidate a 16 year old kid into giving your team some more calls. Unfortunately you're a typical parent and a typical fanboy.

The true "you" just came out.

Sad.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Completely lame. If I were working that game, you wouldn't have seen the end of the game.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I am actually in AZ, NYS stands for National Youth Sports.

The officiating is all over the place, sometimes we get a great ref, other times we are pretty much playing without one on the floor. I would guess this kid is probably 16-18. At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Did you accomplish anything by yelling at the young official?

What do you think of people who sit in the stands and yell at you?

Can you explain the 3 second rule to us?

Can you tell me where I can find the rule that says the number or fouls on each team has to be even?

Have you ever read a basketball rule book?

I anxiously await your reply.