The Beauty of Summer Sight-Seeing

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Unfortunately when you do so, you are going completely against the very explicit instructions and guidance given to us by both the FED and NCAA rulesmakers. They both tell us that this is NEVER a judgment call. Two hands placed on a ballhandler by a defender is an automatic foul. That includes all instances when a ballhandler is right beside a defender imo.
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No they don't. You are adding your own weight to the words. As with every single case they ever publish, they don't consider the what-ifs....the statements are to be generally applied but are not absolutes.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a ballhandler is beside a defender, I personally would never consider that defender as being beat either. I'd give the defender the chance to recover. What I won't do is allow a defender to put both hands on a ballhandler from the side.

As I said, it doesn't matter whether any of us like or agree with this particular rule. We don't have any choice but to follow it because we are being told that we have to.

And on the other page we're told something else....that all fouls are judgement calls and that we are to consider the advantage and intent/purpose...and it is up to us to find a balance between the two.

Use the whole book, not just pages that work for your argument.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No they don't. You are adding your own weight to the words. As with every single case they ever publish, they don't consider the what-ifs....the statements are to be generally applied but are not absolutes.

As Nevada posted:

2008-09 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
...
2. ROUGH PLAY
...
B. Hand-checking Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics. An offensive player who uses his/her hands or body to push off in order to create a more favorable position has committed a foul. Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1) Continuously places a hand on the opposing player – it is a foul.
2) Places both hands on a player – it is a foul.
3) Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent – it is a foul.

Not really sure I'm seeing any wiggle room here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BLydic

As Nevada posted:

2008-09 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
...
2. ROUGH PLAY
...
Not really sure I'm seeing any wiggle room here.

Check out rule 4. Don't have my books with me to quote them but it defines several types of fouls...with the same type of language. This one is no different. They're just attempting to get everyone to recognize that this is sufficient to qualify as a foul because it was not clear for some people or was being passed on too often. It doesn't mean it has to be called any more than any other type of textbook foul. Common sense, advantage/disadvantage, and intelligent use of the rules is still necessary.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Check out rule 4. Don't have my books with me to quote them but it defines several types of fouls...with the same type of language. This one is no different. They're just attempting to get everyone to recognize that this is sufficient to qualify as a foul because it was not clear for some people or was being passed on too often. It doesn't mean it has to be called any more than any other type of textbook foul. Common sense, advantage/disadvantage, and intelligent use of the rules is still necessary.

Have you been possessed by Rut?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

They're just attempting to get everyone to recognize that this is sufficient to qualify as a foul because it was not clear for some people or was being passed on too often. It doesn't mean it has to be called any more than any other type of textbook foul. Common sense, advantage/disadvantage, and intelligent use of the rules is still necessary.

That is complete and utter nonsense. The NFHS and NCAA rulesmakers are attempting to get everyone to recognize through very clear and explicit language contained in NFHS POE's and in an APPENDIX in the NCAA rulebook that there is no advantage/disadvantage involved anywhere in this particular play. Both rulesets use the exact same, unequivocal language:

"WHEN A DEFENSIVE PLAYER PUTS TWO HANDS ON AN OPPONENT, IT IS A FOUL."

Nowhere can it be found in anything ever issued by the FED or NCAA is language saying that a defender putting two hands on an opponent MAY be a foul, as you are contending.

Common sense says that you should follow the explicit direction of the rulesmakers. You simply call it when it occurs. We are told exactly how to call the play and anyone intelligently using the rules will do so. What is truly sad is that some officials will still continue to ignore very plainly written POE's and other directives and make up their very own rules.

[JRutledge]

When you work for the NF or NCAA (which no one here does) or you work as a conference assignor (which neither of you are in my area and many other areas), then I can take you word for it as law. Until then this has been a very interesting conversation, but means little or nothing. You can keep repeating only the POE and ignore all other language and it means nothing but your opinion and a couple of people that tend to agree with you. You can keep putting the words in bold and that does not change what I was even told last night while working a basketball camp.

This conversation is becoming very redundant and no one here is going to change my mind about this and I am sure that the people I work for do not take that position that you are taking and likely never will.

Peace

[jalons]

Would you report the foul for placing two hands on a ball-handler as a hand-check or a hold? How about an arm-bar?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jalons

Would you report the foul for placing two hands on a ball-handler as a hand-check or a hold?

By the book, yes. However, for that one particular call, I usually give the handcheck signal and verbalize "Two hands" to the table.

How about an arm-bar?

I usually go with a push on that one.